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Pleasure In Suffering

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markus said:
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Wonderful idea, Markus.

Augustus apparently didn't take the news of Varus' disaster well. "Quintili Vare, legiones redde!“ ('Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions!')

Publius Quinctilius Varus was the legate in Syria at the time Jesus was born, if you accept that Herod the Great was still in charge then (as both Matthew and Luke imply). This fact (and the absence of any extra-evangelical evidence of a "great census" in which "all the known world" was taxed under Augustus) exposes Luke's otherwise appealing Nativity account as a legend at best, a novelistic fabrication at worst. Luke claims the census occurred while Quirinius was "leading" in Syria. It's fun to read all the excuses "scholars" make to save Luke's veracity (he didn't really say Quirinius was the governor, Qurinius was in the region in Armenia). You can believe in Jesus of the Gospels without requiring that everything said be absolutely true, but apparently the lack of certainty causes problems for some.
 
Frank Petrexa said:
Augustus apparently didn't take the news of Varus' disaster well. "Quintili Vare, legiones redde!“ ('Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions!')

Publius Quinctilius Varus was the legate in Syria at the time Jesus was born, if you accept that Herod the Great was still in charge then (as both Matthew and Luke imply). This fact (and the absence of any extra-evangelical evidence of a "great census" in which "all the known world" was taxed under Augustus) exposes Luke's otherwise appealing Nativity account as a legend at best, a novelistic fabrication at worst. Luke claims the census occurred while Quirinius was "leading" in Syria. It's fun to read all the excuses "scholars" make to save Luke's veracity (he didn't really say Quirinius was the governor, Qurinius was in the region in Armenia). You can believe in Jesus of the Gospels without requiring that everything said be absolutely true, but apparently the lack of certainty causes problems for some.
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From what I know the existence of Christ is witnessed by an almost contemporary one, a Jew who became famous at the time of Masada and who became a "Gentile" and Roman knight, Flavio Giuseppe (Yosef ben Matityahu). He wrote about the war in Judea.
 
markus said:
From what I know the existence of Christ is witnessed by an almost contemporary one, a Jew who became famous at the time of Masada and who became a "Gentile" and Roman knight, Flavio Giuseppe (Yosef ben Matityahu). He wrote about the war in Judea.
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Known best in the English-speaking world as Josephus.
 
markus said:
From what I know the existence of Christ is witnessed by an almost contemporary one, a Jew who became famous at the time of Masada and who became a "Gentile" and Roman knight, Flavio Giuseppe (Yosef ben Matityahu). He wrote about the war in Judea.
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The passages in Josephus that talk about Jesus are very widely agreed to be interpolations added later by pious Christians. You can search for "testimonium flavianum" for more on that. The only question is whether they are entirely fraudulent, or include fraudulent additions to some original comments about Jesus. Either way, they aren't much to go on as historical evidence.
 
markus said:
From what I know the existence of Christ is witnessed by an almost contemporary one, a Jew who became famous at the time of Masada and who became a "Gentile" and Roman knight, Flavio Giuseppe (Yosef ben Matityahu). He wrote about the war in Judea.
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Yes, his writings undermine Luke's story. He notes that a census was ordered in Judea by Quirinius when Herod the Great's son Archaeus was deposed and the Romans took direct control of Judea (but not Galilee). Matthew mentions that Archaeus was still king and has the angel tell Joseph to move to Bethlem to avoid him (Luke claimed that Joseph had lived in Nazareth all along and had only come down to Bethlehem for the census). I believe Josephus wrote his "Jewish Antiquities" in the 90's CE. He had been a rebel commander in the 70's war in Judea when (later Emperor) Vespasian put down the revolt with his son Titus. Josephus went over to their side and was "adopted". Hence the name Flavius Josephus, after the Flavian dynasty Vespasian founded and Titus carried on. So he should know about Quirinius, and he should also know about the deposition of Herod the Great's son Archaeus. The Herod in Galilee in the gospels was still a ruler. Of the "tetrarchs" created when Herod the Great's kingdom had been split among his four sons at the time of his death, the Romans only deposed Archaeus in Judea, and that was about 10 years later. You'd think Josephus would have this right.
 
Hangnail said:
The passages in Josephus that talk about Jesus are very widely agreed to be interpolations added later by pious Christians. You can search for "testimonium flavianum" for more on that. The only question is whether they are entirely fraudulent, or include fraudulent additions to some original comments about Jesus. Either way, they aren't much to go on as historical evidence.
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One paper I read noted that the "Testamentum Flavium" is right next to the story of the crucifixion of the freed woman Ide, for her role in the plot of a Roman equus Mundus to get the Roman Patircian Paulina into bed after she had rebuffed him. Ide bribed the priests of the Isis temple to tell Paulina the god Anubis wanted to sleep with her, and Mundus played Anubis. Tiberius crucified the priests and Ide, and exiled Mundus, and had the trappings of the Isis cult pitched into the Tiber. The guy who wrote the paper noted that the placement of this story right next to the clearly edit "Testamentum" probably indicated that Josephus had probably said something "really rude" about Jesus in his original text.
 
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