Sensitive topics - reality and fantasy too close together?

[nsur1]

I don't think these have been posted here before. They are not in any form erotic or BDSM drawings, but they are artwork about judicial punishment of women. The artist is Danzig Baldaev (1925-2002), collected in his postumously-published book "Drawings from the Gulag". The publisher's website is here, an interview with the publisher is here and a review from The Observer newspaper is here. I am somewhat wary of posting them, as they are subject of heated political discussions when posted in other forums and blogs which I specifically don't want to start here.



I don't have the book, so I don't have translations of the Russian text on the images except for those where the images I've found have the original as well as the translations. In addition, I believe the last image translates as "Tell me now, you educated animal, about how you preached genetics, that bourgeois anti-Soviet ersatz science, in your university department, or you'll be breathing through your arsehole!"

 

[windar]

"Tell me now, you educated animal, about how you preached genetics, that bourgeois anti-Soviet ersatz science, in your university department, or you'll be breathing through your arsehole!"

Oh, oh, I worked in genetics!!

Interestingly, Lysenko's neo-Lamarckian ideas, while wrong in the simple sense in which he presented them, are now seen to have some merit. Recent work has opened the field of epigenetics, the inheritance of acquired trait, through DNA methylation and other mechanisms. Studies have seen effects of events such as the Dutch Hunger Winter of 1945 even on the grandchildren of those who lived through it.

 

[Eulalia]

I don't think these have been posted here before. They are not in any form erotic or BDSM drawings, but they are artwork about judicial punishment of women. The artist is Danzig Baldaev (1925-2002), collected in his postumously-published book "Drawings from the Gulag". The publisher's website is here, an interview with the publisher is here and a review from The Observer newspaper is here. I am somewhat wary of posting them, as they are subject of heated political discussions when posted in other forums and blogs which I specifically don't want to start here.

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I don't have the book, so I don't have translations of the Russian text on the images except for those where the images I've found have the original as well as the translations. In addition, I believe the last image translates as "Tell me now, you educated animal, about how you preached genetics, that bourgeois anti-Soviet ersatz science, in your university department, or you'll be breathing through your arsehole!"

I think those are quite appropriate for our site (possibly not this particular thread, but I don't think that's a problem - if they provoke a serious, sensible discussion, we could shift it to a separate thread). I think quite a few of us are willing to face up to and think seriously about the true horror of what has gone on - and still does go on - in the 'real world', and the great gulf - but complex links too - between those hard facts and our fantasies.

It would be interesting to have translations of the Russian texts, though 3 have English texts with them, and the others are pretty well self-explanatory. The Guardian/ Observer article about the artist is very thought-provoking too. One thing that does give me an uneasy feeling is the portrayal of the interrogator in #3 (and #7), as a very typical, stereotyped Jew. Sadly, the myth of Jewish Bolshevism wasn't only promoted by the Nazis, it was all too current among nationalistic, openly or secretly anti-Bolshevik, Russians - and of course Stalin and later Brezhnev co-opted anti-Semitism to serve their ends too - the Jews had no friends, on the 'right' or the 'left' (which, as post 1989 events have shown, had a great deal in common with each other).

 

[elephas]

I don't think these have been posted here before. They are not in any form erotic or BDSM drawings, but they are artwork about judicial punishment of women. The artist is Danzig Baldaev (1925-2002), collected in his postumously-published book "Drawings from the Gulag". The publisher's website is here, an interview with the publisher is here and a review from The Observer newspaper is here. I am somewhat wary of posting them, as they are subject of heated political discussions when posted in other forums and blogs which I specifically don't want to start here.

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I don't have the book, so I don't have translations of the Russian text on the images except for those where the images I've found have the original as well as the translations. In addition, I believe the last image translates as "Tell me now, you educated animal, about how you preached genetics, that bourgeois anti-Soviet ersatz science, in your university department, or you'll be breathing through your arsehole!"

To be honest, I cannot perceive these drawings in the context of erotic fantasy. This is the cruel reality of history, the remnants of which are still alive in some countries, including where I live. I could translate these captions from Russian, but I assure you, their content is simply awful.

 

[windar]

To be honest, I cannot perceive these drawings in the context of erotic fantasy. This is the cruel reality of history, the remnants of which are still alive in some countries, including where I live. I could translate these captions from Russian, but I assure you, their content is simply awful.

But then, the site is filled with horrors pulled from the reality of history. Crucifixion was real, the Inquisition was real, slavery of the non-consensual kind was real, modern interrogations in police states was and is real. Even some of the futuristic dystopia may prove (horribly) to have all too many elements of reality. Barb had a story (sadly, unfinished, but maybe it could be completed at some point) set in the gulag. So where is the line?

 

[doe1971]

So where is the line?

In the sand, periodically washed away by waves.

 

[Eulalia]

But then, the site is filled with horrors pulled from the reality of history. Crucifixion was real, the Inquisition was real, slavery of the non-consensual kind was real, modern interrogations in police states was and is real. Even some of the futuristic dystopia may prove (horribly) to have all too many elements of reality. Barb had a story (sadly, unfinished, but maybe it could be completed at some point) set in the gulag. So where is the line?

Indeed my 'Beauty and the Russian Beast' is set in Poland at the time of the Soviet 'liberation', and then in Moscow in the time around the death of Stalin. My heroine is tortured in the Lubyanka and sentenced to hard labour in the gulag ...

When I started it, one or two members questioned whether it was good to stir up such relatively recent, painful memories, but most encouraged me (including, importantly, ImageMaker himself) Of course, we've had a good many stories and images of the Nazi era, and some of more recent horrors, in the Islamic world, in Latin America and in China.

 

[nsur1]

One thing that does give me an uneasy feeling is the portrayal of the interrogator in #3 (and #7), as a very typical, stereotyped Jew. Sadly, the myth of Jewish Bolshevism wasn't only promoted by the Nazis, it was all too current among nationalistic, openly or secretly anti-Bolshevik, Russians - and of course Stalin and later Brezhnev co-opted anti-Semitism to serve their ends too - the Jews had no friends, on the 'right' or the 'left' (which, as post 1989 events have shown, had a great deal in common with each other).

Yes, I noticed that as well and it does sit uneasily with the artist's (self) image as an unflinching uncoverer of Soviet cruelty. I don't have any easy answer to the moral ambiguities, but that is inherent in the topic of this forum, I think. Everybody has a line where the fantasy stops, and it will be different for each of us. For similar reasons as Elephas, I have issues with Nazi torture fantasies because it's too close to my own cultural and family background and I know too much about the real horrors involved. Projecting fantasies becomes easier with cultural or historical distance. But then again, some of the most powerful fantasies are those that take our everyday life and twist just a few little details.

 

[windar]

But then again, some of the most powerful fantasies are those that take our everyday life and twist just a few little details.

I tend to set many of my stories in the present and in familiar locales. Of course in so doing, some may take offense when they mistake your entirely fictional creation for a real person . None of Caesar's supporters are around to take his side, but those of his modern day exemplars are. I note that Shakespeare wrote about a great many of the kings of England, but not the monarch of his own time, Elizabeth I.

Anyway, this is an interesting topic and perhaps should have its own thread?

 

[nsur1]

I tend to set many of my stories in the present and in familiar locales. Of course in so doing, some may take offense when they mistake your entirely fictional creation for a real person . None of Caesar's supporters are around to take his side, but those of his modern day exemplars are. I note that Shakespeare wrote about a great many of the kings of England, but not the monarch of his own time, Elizabeth I.

Anyway, this is an interesting topic and perhaps should have its own thread?

I can think of a few residents and officals of the Republic of Singapore who might be offended by certain recent stories posted on this site...

And yes, if the discussion has legs it probably should have its own thread. Apologies for Elephas, whose thread this is -- I didn't mean to hijack it.

 

[elephas]

Dear friends, I do not condemn those who fantasize on controversial historical topics. It would be strange for a forum like ours. To Windar's question, I can answer as follows: my line is to stay, if possible, in the realm of fantasy which distances itself from recent historical reality. I also try not to participate in harshest topics on our forum, treating with respect to those who are interested. While adhering to the principle of fantasy, I nonetheless look forward to Nsur's future story of Doris.

 

[nsur1]

As this discussion may be slightly confusing to those who haven't followed it from the beginning, I should say that my opening post to this thread was originally posted in the "Judicial Corporal Punishment Of Women: Illustrations" thread. Eulalia has kindly separated it from that thread and moved it to its own topic when the discussion became off-topic there, but of potential wider interest to the forum as a whole.

 

[fallenmystic]

My own criteria for judging whether or not using a historical case of atrocity as a fetish material can be allowed is a) if the general public understand and agree that it was a wrong thing, and b) if there's a reasonable chance that the direct victims of the incident can see the material and get traumatized.

As such, I think it's ok to use the Soviet Gulag or Nazi concentration camp as a background for a fetish story or artwork, since most of us understand that something like they should never happen again, and there's little chance that survivors of these events stumble upon such fetish works by chance.

Of course it is possible that they may find such materials intentionally, possibly after being informed by someone else. But I think it's not a sufficient reason to suppress the freedom of others to express and enjoy such fictitious art. For, if we are to apply the same principle, we should never depict a rape or torture scene in any media, for instance, because there are, and will always be victims of such tragedies somewhere in the world unfortunately.

So I think putting those materials behind a warning message is the best we can do to prevent those who may get traumatized from accidentally stumbling upon such contents.

As for an example which I regard as inappropriate regarding appropriation of a real life tragedy, I remember a video game dealing with the ongoing Syrian war. I got angry when I found a new video game appear in my Steam recommendation list after I read a news about refugees of the same war got drowned in their failed attempt to cross the Mediterranean sea.

The game promoted itself as being "based on a true story" when it was just a generic strategy game about killing each other without any attempt to shed light on the sufferings from the tragedy. I criticized this point in their forum and got bombarded by the fans, unsurprisingly.

So, I hold the same criteria to judge the appropriateness of fetish materials dealing with a historic event. If it's about the Gulag, I don't find it to be a problem since now most of us understand the extent of the atrocities committed and agree that something like that should never happen again. Also, there's little chance a survivor from that camp may actively browse the internet and stumble upon such a material by chance.

 

[elephas]

Let me explain why I criticized the post of Nsur, whom I respect and sympathize with. I am young enough and, of course, I am not a victim of the Stalinist repressions. But in my country, Belarus, the punitive bodies trace their succession to the Stalinist NKVD, the methods of the Stalinist Gulag / Gestapo are still practiced by the police in relation to those who disagree with the Lukashenka dictatorship. I think you are aware of what is happening in Belarus now, and the situation may further worsen. Hence my emotional reaction. However, I am opposed to restricting freedom of expression on any topic, even the most controversial.

 

[Barbaria1]

I think you are aware of what is happening in Belarus now, and the situation may further worsen.

We should all be aware! Stay safe!

 

[Crux-Emperor Baracus X]

I keep my fantasies as far away,as possible, historically-wise....hence my propensity for crucifixions,etc....

 

[fallenmystic]

Let me explain why I criticized Nsur's post, whom I respect and sympathize with. I am young enough and, of course, I am not a victim of the Stalinist repressions. But in my country, Belarus, the punitive bodies trace their succession to the Stalinist NKVD, the methods of the Stalinist Gulag / Gestapo are still practiced by the police in relation to those who disagree with the Lukashenka dictatorship. I think you are aware of what is happening in Belarus now, and the situation may further worsen. Hence my emotional reaction. However, I am opposed to restricting freedom of expression on any topic, even the most controversial.

Thanks for the explanation. Regardless of where we draw the line between what we regard as an appropriate form of a historical fiction (or erotica) and those we don't, I believe we can all try to be aware of where such atrocities and violations of human rights are happening in real life.

As a person who was born under a military dictatorship but now live in a democratic (at least in appearance) country, I'd like to encourage you not to give up hope. Like Charles Chaplin's powerful speech in his first non-silent film asserts, "The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people."

P.S.: I have a small objection to that great speech, by the way. He urges people to fight against those who ensalve them and "treat them like cattles"... but those two things happen to be the greatest fetish of mine, so I may be less enthusiastic about abolishing such a practice, especially when the victims are some innocent looking girls without clothes

 

[jacksjg89]

I think that the things we fetishize on this site have a reflection of the real world in it, and there might be something wrong with us for liking it. While in Spain I went to a small museum on the Spanish Inquisition and saw a bunch of the authentic torture devices used with illustrations on how it was used, sometimes including nude women. These were real atrocities done to real people, and yet they can still play into fantasies. I've been to terror house in Budapest, the headquarters of both the Gestapo and then the KGB, and took the creepy elevator down into the preserved dungeon cells, and saw the nooses that the rebels of 56' were hung from. These are the extremes of the human experience. The kind that we would never explore save in fantasy. Not to get too political, but right now in my country we have protesters being thrown into unmarked vans by law enforcement. But what I feel when I see what @nsur1 posted is a love for the women who have been harmed. That doesn't mean I've turned them into objects, or that I desire more women to experience what they experience, but that we have some empathy for the victims of totalitarian regimes, and porn is a tool in that cause.


This is a mural in Chile, commentating the victims of sexual torture under Pinochet, a subject that I'm obsessed with because how it relates to US politics and economy. Maybe they don't want people to get off on seeing this mural, but they want it to be seen and felt. There's been a lot of evil in this world, and I think there's a lot more coming, and this could be a small way of dealing with it.

I think a good story type to explore, guilt free, is the way yellow journalism was used, specifically by good old William Randolph Hearst:


So I think the fun, less dark, side of this issue to explore is that of a department responsible for making propaganda and recruiting patriotic women to pose in the most crazy deranged scenarios that bored government officials come up with.

 

[KageKamen]

So where is the line?

Inside each of our own hearts. (And occaisionally, the site rules.)

P.S.: I have a small objection to that great speech, by the way. He urges people to fight against those who ensalve them and "treat them like cattles"... but those two things happen to be the greatest fetish of mine, so I may be less enthusiastic about abolishing such a practice, especially when the victims are some innocent looking girls without clothes

Surely holding such a fetish will be easier on your heart when it has been cosigned to history?

 

[fallenmystic]

Surely holding such a fetish will be easier on your heart when it has been cosigned to history?

Not at all. I wrote the quoted sentence merely as a joke, but I'm far from being a type who may prefer to delegate ethical judgements to others.

Rather, I tend to self-question a lot on such issues regarding my kinks so that I'm convinced that what I enjoy wouldn't be inconsistent or incompatible with my other beliefs outside my fantasies.

And I often find myself to be in the minority in many of the conclusions that I reached in my self-involved inquiries. As such, I don't normally feel better if what I doubt to be morally appropriate are often practiced by others (e.g. celebrity photo manipulation), nor would I care that much if what I concluded to be fine to indulge happens to be repulsive to others (e.g. racial slavery).

While I have no intention to assert the universality of my own principles on such matters, I don't feel any need to validate them on public opinions or historical events.