Ethics of captions and manips

[rieo]

I get really turned on by sexy pictures that have captions added to them to make them better at fulfilling our sort of kink, and by photo manipulations, and all that sort of stuff. I have a lot of ideas about things I could create along those lines. But I'm fundamentally a nice guy at heart, and I have a bit of an ethical dilemma. Some of the hottest photos out there that I would like to add captions to, for example, are photos that are not professional porn, they're just random pictures of girls having a good time stripping or being at parties or whatever. And I don't feel morally right repurposing such photos for creating kink images. Even with actual professional porn images, I feel a bit troubled about repurposing them. The women consented to having their pictures taken in that context, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they would consent to having them repurposed into kink art. For me it would be really hot, but I'm not sure if it's right to do.

What do you think about the ethics of this sort of thing?

Obviously, using AI images would solve this whole problem. But AI is not quite there yet, AI porn images still look distinctly unreal. Some are very sexy, but it's still not quite the real thing. If and when that changes, the explosion in porn will be amazing.

 

[Wragg]

I get really turned on by sexy pictures that have captions added to them to make them better at fulfilling our sort of kink, and by photo manipulations, and all that sort of stuff. I have a lot of ideas about things I could create along those lines. But I'm fundamentally a nice guy at heart, and I have a bit of an ethical dilemma. Some of the hottest photos out there that I would like to add captions to, for example, are photos that are not professional porn, they're just random pictures of girls having a good time stripping or being at parties or whatever. And I don't feel morally right repurposing such photos for creating kink images. Even with actual professional porn images, I feel a bit troubled about repurposing them. The women consented to having their pictures taken in that context, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they would consent to having them repurposed into kink art. For me it would be really hot, but I'm not sure if it's right to do.

What do you think about the ethics of this sort of thing?

Obviously, using AI images would solve this whole problem. But AI is not quite there yet, AI porn images still look distinctly unreal. Some are very sexy, but it's still not quite the real thing. If and when that changes, the explosion in porn will be amazing.

You do need to be very careful with images of that kind. If somebody has posed nude for a professional photographer they will have signed a consent form and will know full well that the images will appear on the internet. I have never known such a model complain about subsequent use of such images on this site.

But if they have been covertly snapped in a strip club, or have posted images of themselves at a party on instagram then they definitely have NOT consented to having either me photomapping them onto a cross or you posting captions under their picture. The same is true of so-called 'revenge porn' but that may be more difficult to spot, except that photos may be of a lower quality.

In short, it is better to use images of professional models. And moderators will delete social media type images, so paradoxically we're more likely to delete fully clothed images than nude ones!

 

[fallenmystic]

I believe the rule should extend to such cases involving celebrities.

Emilia Clarke, for example, appeared nude in several scenes in Game of Thrones. But does it grant anyone a right to make fake nude pictures of her and share them online?

Aside from potential copyright issues, I think it's totally fine to share screen captures of the actual nude scenes from the series because those were what Emilia Clarke herself agreed to take and wanted people to see. But what if someone just pasted her face over some bestiality or scat porn scene and shared them online, for example? Do you think we can use her image in such ways just because she appeared nude in a totally different context?

I don't know Emilia Clarke that well, so I'm not sure if she'd sue such people or just laugh it off. However, I believe the point in question shouldn't be about potential legal risks but about respect.

Kink, for me, is something I can enjoy in my fantasies, not something I pursue at the expense of real people who don't even share such a taste. As such, if there's even a chance that creating and sharing such fake images would cause grief to the people depicted in them, I believe we shouldn't allow it.

If an actress allows people to admire her beautiful body in her works, we should appreciate it instead of using those images to make her feel uncomfortable. It's a simple matter of respect and decency for me.

I'm not sure how many would agree with my take on this matter. In fact, quite a few posts, including fake nude images of celebrities like Emma Watson, have been made in this forum, and even moderators "liked" instead of deleting them. So, I can assume I might be in the minority on this issue.

Still, I wish we could adopt a stricter policy about it.

Obviously, using AI images would solve this whole problem. But AI is not quite there yet, AI porn images still look distinctly unreal. Some are very sexy, but it's still not quite the real thing. If and when that changes, the explosion in porn will be amazing.

In fact, it's been there for quite some time. Replacing the face of a manip, for example, is not only pretty easy but will also make it look more realistic than the original.

 

[Wragg]

You're right, FM, the rules say


Faked porn images of people who are currently well-known and certainly wouldn't want to feature on a site like this (nor would their lawyers and agents be happy about it) are not allowable.

And you're right about Emma Watson etc.

One of these days I must make myself a cup of coffee and embark on a seek and destroy mission.

 

[cynthia the inocent]

I get really turned on by sexy pictures that have captions added to them to make them better at fulfilling our sort of kink, and by photo manipulations, and all that sort of stuff. I have a lot of ideas about things I could create along those lines. But I'm fundamentally a nice guy at heart, and I have a bit of an ethical dilemma. Some of the hottest photos out there that I would like to add captions to, for example, are photos that are not professional porn, they're just random pictures of girls having a good time stripping or being at parties or whatever. And I don't feel morally right repurposing such photos for creating kink images. Even with actual professional porn images, I feel a bit troubled about repurposing them. The women consented to having their pictures taken in that context, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they would consent to having them repurposed into kink art. For me it would be really hot, but I'm not sure if it's right to do.

What do you think about the ethics of this sort of thing?

Obviously, using AI images would solve this whole problem. But AI is not quite there yet, AI porn images still look distinctly unreal. Some are very sexy, but it's still not quite the real thing. If and when that changes, the explosion in porn will be amazing.

Ethics? Leave them at the door. There is no place for ethics here. Allow yourself to enjoy whatever turns you on

 

[malins]

Ethics? Leave them at the door. There is no place for ethics here. Allow yourself to enjoy whatever turns you on

Hmm I think there is a difference between the stories, roleplays and so on that are created on CF where that may be true...

...and the way we act when creating such stories, where as real persons we should avoid real misdeeds against other real people, private or public, who have nothing to do with this place.

 

[fallenmystic]

Ethics? Leave them at the door. There is no place for ethics here. Allow yourself to enjoy whatever turns you on

I don't intend to force my ethics on others. But at least for me, a strict boundary on ethics is what allows me to explore the darker depths of my fantasies safely and without guilt.

As you probably have noted, I dig such themes as extreme racism, slavery, and the torture of innocent women, just to name a few. I can freely enjoy them only because I'm confident they don't affect what I believe in real life.

If I ever find myself feeling turned on by seeing a real person suffering racism, rape, or torture, that'll be the day I'll quit everything related to kinks and try to redeem myself.

Creating and sharing fake nude images of real, unwilling people and feeling turned on by it feels too close to that "red line" to me.

 

[cynthia the inocent]

Let me clarify. When I open this site or others, even Face Book I open a door and step inside. It is an alternate world. It enhances my fantasies. I enjoy kink with likeminded people in reality, but wouldn't nail someone to a cross, or hang them to death. I hope people who come here understand the difference between this and reality. If I get off on this, it is nobody's business but my own. I don't believe in Heaven and hell, but if hell is real they have a reservation for me

 

[mp5stab]

Ethics? Leave them at the door. There is no place for ethics here. Allow yourself to enjoy whatever turns you on

Surely even you have limits about this? I think his misgivings are valid. Frankly, there is art that I am not too keen on because I don't know the providence of the photos used to create it. It's one thing to use a model from a professional shot, but another thing entirely to use candids.

Let me clarify. When I open this site or others, even Face Book I open a door and step inside. It is an alternate world. It enhances my fantasies. I enjoy kink with likeminded people in reality, but wouldn't nail someone to a cross, or hang them to death. I hope people who come here understand the difference between this and reality. If I get off on this, it is nobody's business but my own. I don't believe in Heaven and hell, but if hell is real they have a reservation for me

Does this mean that you don't have limits for the content of the stories? Do you *really* find nothing objectionable?

 

[fallenmystic]

Let me clarify. When I open this site or others, even Face Book I open a door and step inside. It is an alternate world. It enhances my fantasies. I enjoy kink with likeminded people in reality, but wouldn't nail someone to a cross, or hang them to death. I hope people who come here understand the difference between this and reality. If I get off on this, it is nobody's business but my own. I don't believe in Heaven and hell, but if hell is real they have a reservation for me

I have no doubt you—and a vast majority of our members, for that matter—have no trouble differentiating fantasy from reality. But the issue in question was about creating and sharing fake nudes of real people who have nothing to do with our fantasies.

Of course, few would believe Emma Watson was actually crucified naked in real life when they see a manip or AI work depicting such a scene. However, the issue here is that the actress never consented to her images being used in such a manner and would likely feel offended if she found out.

I never meant to say you had any trouble in telling what is a fantasy from what is real. Instead, I wanted to point out that those depicted in such a manner are not consensual participants of our fantasy.

 

[JustJJ]

As someone who has posted my own nudes here, I really don’t care what others might use my likeness for. I covered my face in all of those pictures, including the obscured one of myself in my profile picture. If you’d rather imagine a face on my body, and you want to edit a photo of my nude body with someone else’s face, go for it. If you want to cover me in bruises and whip marks, feel free. That’s what I wanted when I put them there.

I don’t speak for anyone but myself! Of course everyone has different feelings about this! But if you want some pictures to edit or add captions to, you can use my thread.

 

[rieo]

As someone who has posted my own nudes here, I really don’t care what others might use my likeness for. I covered my face in all of those pictures, including the obscured one of myself in my profile picture. If you’d rather imagine a face on my body, and you want to edit a photo of my nude body with someone else’s face, go for it. If you want to cover me in bruises and whip marks, feel free. That’s what I wanted when I put them there.

That's really hot. My biggest kink is consensual sadomasochism in which the woman is an eager participant, so when women say stuff like this it really gets me going.

 

[cynthia the inocent]

Surely even you have limits about this? I think his misgivings are valid. Frankly, there is art that I am not too keen on because I don't know the providence of the photos used to create it. It's one thing to use a model from a professional shot, but another thing entirely to use candids.

Does this mean that you don't have limits for the content of the stories? Do you *really* find nothing objectionable?

if it is fantasy there are few things that are objectional. Child pornography or child abuse come to mind. Some may find crux objectional, or burning at the stake, but keep in mind we are talking fantasy and it is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Xavier Garnier]

I have been a lurker primarily for the years I have been here, and so feel somewhat weird even weighing in. (I would have liked to post some drawings but things have gotten in the way, etcetera). Nonetheless, I think it is an important enough topic that maybe I'll say something.

I feel that there seems to be a strange double standard in the rules concerning this. There are some regular posters who could not possibly have obtained consent from all the participants in their oeuvre of photoshops, yet the images are allowed and seem to even be encouraged. A lot of cases of this are individuals in the photos that may not be nude, but are clearly actively participating in whatever crux/BDSM-related fantasy happens to be in the photo. I really find this to not make any sense. I don't think some random person who would not want themselves depicted nude on a cross would suddenly be okay with their clothed likeness nailing some other nude individual onto a cross.

I think would be great to have a place where artists and people interested in crux can do it in a way that does not involve non-consenting people so I really think this needs to be discussed seriously and not brushed over.

Note also that laws are starting to be passed everywhere targeting explicit photoshopped content of non-consenting people, and I highly doubt there will be an affirmative defense written into these laws where just because someone is not actually nude, it's okay. Photoshopped stuff has been circulating forever, but with AI new attention is being cast on all of this, not just AI.

Faked porn images of people who are currently well-known and certainly wouldn't want to feature on a site like this (nor would their lawyers and agents be happy about it) are not allowable.

What I do not currently understand is why it matters if the individuals are well-known or not?

 

[Wragg]

I have been a lurker primarily for the years I have been here, and so feel somewhat weird even weighing in. (I would have liked to post some drawings but things have gotten in the way, etcetera). Nonetheless, I think it is an important enough topic that maybe I'll say something.

I feel that there seems to be a strange double standard in the rules concerning this. There are some regular posters who could not possibly have obtained consent from all the participants in their oeuvre of photoshops, yet the images are allowed and seem to even be encouraged. A lot of cases of this are individuals in the photos that may not be nude, but are clearly actively participating in whatever crux/BDSM-related fantasy happens to be in the photo. I really find this to not make any sense. I don't think some random person who would not want themselves depicted nude on a cross would suddenly be okay with their clothed likeness nailing some other nude individual onto a cross.

I think would be great to have a place where artists and people interested in crux can do it in a way that does not involve non-consenting people so I really think this needs to be discussed seriously and not brushed over.

Note also that laws are starting to be passed everywhere targeting explicit photoshopped content of non-consenting people, and I highly doubt there will be an affirmative defense written into these laws where just because someone is not actually nude, it's okay. Photoshopped stuff has been circulating forever, but with AI new attention is being cast on all of this, not just AI.


What I do not currently understand is why it matters if the individuals are well-known or not?

For what it's worth, I think you are probably right. I'm a touch busy right now but I hope to come up with a more considered response this evening.

 

[messaline]

I'm astonished that those questions can be set down here ...
In a first hand, dont forget that we're a private forum and, therefore, people coming here make that wittingly : people coming have to be registered and then to learn the rules of the forum ...
In a second hand, if I was agreeing your propositions, I would have to delete all my oeuvres ( My deep fantasy, Anjou Calvaries, and so on... ) under the pretext that, to make them, I use of an alive avatar and never I was asking for her permission ... But you can see that she never was complaining about this fact ...

...

 

[thehangingtree]

I'm astonished that those questions can be set down here ...
In a first hand, dont forget that we're a private forum and, therefore, people coming here make that wittingly : people coming have to be registered and then to learn the rules of the forum ...
In a second hand, if I was agreeing your propositions, I would have to delete all my oeuvres ( My deep fantasy, Anjou Calvaries, and so on... ) under the pretext that, to make them, I use of an alive avatar and never I was asking for her permission ... But you can see that she never was complaining about this fact ...

View attachment 1513755 View attachment 1513759 ...

...and Tree would have to get rid of all his 'Messa' pics!!!

 

[thx1139a]

Note also that laws are starting to be passed everywhere targeting explicit photoshopped content of non-consenting people, and I highly doubt there will be an affirmative defense written into these laws where just because someone is not actually nude, it's okay. Photoshopped stuff has been circulating forever, but with AI new attention is being cast on all of this, not just AI.

I think this is similar to the issues that appeared when early photocopier lawsuits appeared... while someone could in theory write out by hand or type (remember typewriters?) a copy of an article or book, suddenly you could reproduce one cheaply and easily... and it became a threat to publishers, who took action (or tired to). Similarly people trading cassette tapes of music was more or less tolerated, especially at the individual level... once Napster created online file sharing of music, it made it cheap and easy and the industry took notice.

I think we may be at a similar juncture here. People who were talented enough could do drawings of celebs nude or depicting BDSM and pass them around, even online on public forums, and it wasn't liked but couldn't really be stopped. Now with a couple of mouse clicks someone can produce large quantities of photorealistic modified images quickly and easily... pretty much all of them without permission of the people in the images and pretty much all of them depicting things the people in the images would not want to be depicted doing, and the results are spread worldwide in minutes. That's a very different thing than someone doing a pencil sketch nude of the latest hot female model.

How will this play out? We will have to wait and see. Going after sites that allow people to make such content is the low-hanging fruit and would probably significantly reduce but not eliminate the practice. There are other means to use AI to modify images, and the tech will only get easier to use and produce more realistic results. They can slow this down, but they can't stop it any more than problems with other tech can be eliminated once the tech is out in the wild.

 

[messaline]

... even online on public forums, ...

I repeat, we are NOT on a public site/forum : people who want to view our creations have to be registered in first !

 

[thx1139a]

I repeat, we are NOT on a public site/forum : people who want to view our creations have to be registered in first !

I did not say otherwise... I was referring to the numerous online boards and forums on this subject matter, not this venue.