I'ld Wish If We Could Discuss About Bdsm...

[Bagoas]

...Which is why I am glad I saw the 'Story of O' before I read the book....

To be honest the movie version I saw was a VERY diluted version of the book. The strong side of the book are the things that are NOT said. A lot of aspects of O are only given in a hint, in a single paragraph. From some of those you only get the meaning after you have read the addendum 'le retour a Roisssy'.

Then, still, there are a lot of questions left to think about. This, for me, makes the power of the book.

 

[Fantasmo]

Another point I'd like to throw in here.
Let's not forget the artists point of view.

Creating a drawing takes a lot of time (depending on the technique used obviously), especially if it is a "hand drawing".
Every single line has to be drawn by hand.
Meaning that the artist spends hours and hours on one single drawing, drawing hair, the shade under the kneecap or the bark of the tree she is tied to.
Hours that obviously hold a lot of opportunity for the imagination to wander and toy with her/his imagination she/he is bringing to paper...

So the act of drawing is kind of an act itself

 

[Fantasmo]

To be honest the movie version I saw was a VERY diluted version of the book. The strong side of the book are the things that are NOT said. A lot of aspects of O are only given in a hint, in a single paragraph. From some of those you only get the meaning after you have read the addendum 'le retour a Roisssy'.

Then, still, there are a lot of questions left to think about. This, for me, makes the power of the book.

...something that a movie never will be able to do!
You need to pull things away from "flat reality" to make space for imagination.

Color Video -> Foto -> B&W Foto -> Drawing -> Text

But that is true only for people who do have an own imagination.
Unfortunately many don't!
And their number grows, in our image-flooded society!

 

[messaline]

But that is true only for people who do have an own imagination.
Unfortunately many don't!
And their number grows, in our image-flooded society!

Don't be defeatist!Many people yet dream, perhaps with different manners...
Images and photos can make dreaming...

 

[Fantasmo]

Don't be defeatist!Many people yet dream, perhaps with different manners...
Images and photos can make dreaming...

Unfortunately I don't think this was defeatist, but rather reality.
Our society offers so much to consume that many people are not used any more to use their own creativity / imagination.
Note: I did not say "all" or "the overwhelming majority"!

Sure there still are many who dream and have their own imagination, places like this one here are a meeting place for this kind of people!

But the phenomenon of "people being bored and not knowing what to do with themselves" is growing! (One can't get bored if one has fantasy and inspiration!)

And so is the number of people who are not ready any more to invest own time and energy in their own "entertainment", for example by active participation in associations.
For that reason many associations are struggling to survive.

(But this is OT and deviation from the interesting core of the discussion)

 

[Abendlaender]

Well, for myself, the masochist side of BDSM is the most interesting one. It is better to understand that some people enjoy tormenting others. To see pther people suffering can be entertaining while you do not feel pain yourself. Outside agreements between persons, sadism is more dangerous than masochism.


However, for many people, it is hard to understand that pain and suffering give joy to somebody. Even more difficult to understand is hard-core masochism


I am since long wondering why for a majority pain and suffering is something they will never love while somebody else will be aroused by some kinds of pain and suffering.


In the case of martyrs, I could imagine that the dedication to ideas will push the delivering of endorphines while they are suffering. I can well understand that this can lead up to feeling happy during heavy torments.


But I am wondering if masochist personalities beyond martyrdom can be so heavily pronounced that he or she emjoys pain and injuries nearly without any limit. Are there perhaps pain addicts like there are addicts to drugs?


Last but not least, I am wondering very much about a few comments on cruxblog.blogspot.com. A few comments have sentences as if its writers would love to die on a cross. This is strange and hard to believe!

Alex

 

[Bagoas]

Last but not least, I am wondering very much about a few comments on cruxblog.blogspot.com. A few comments have sentences as if its writers would love to die on a cross. This is strange and hard to believe!

I do not know the posts, but remember that there is a crucial (no pun intended) difference between real persons and the voices heard on the internet. See the positive side of it. The interaction on-line has given us the possibility to experiment. If you are say a lad of 20, and you want to pretend you are a lady of 50-something, just to feel the reactions, to feel what it is to chat with other ladies about the menopauze and the difficulties of bringing up puddingheads yourself, by all menas go ahead and be one.
Likewise, playing a person on line who wants to be crucified to death may be the closest they ever come to it.

Especially in SM there is lot more words than action.

 

[Eulalia]

The Golden Rule is​

'Do to others what you'd want them to do to you'​

​

If I - as a masochist - went around obeying that rule,​

I'd soon be in deep trouble ​

(perhaps being punished?​

It's all very confusing .... )​

 

[Fantasmo]

Well, for myself, the masochist side of BDSM is the most interesting one. It is better to understand that some people enjoy tormenting others. To see other people suffering can be entertaining while you do not feel pain yourself.

Well, you are leaving out an important aspect here, imho.
Yes, the "pure" sadists exist, those who just like to see others suffer.
But I doubt that any masochist truly wants to get in contact with one of those.
Regardless how profound the masochism is, there are always limitations and the secret desire to have own fantasies fulfilled... what is happening only (on a reliable base) if the "sadist" cares a little about that.

And here we are getting to the important group that you left out: People who like to see others "in pain and pleasure"!
That needn't mean "vanilla", it just means that they are not brutes who don't find their joy in knocking a rock on ones head (that hurts as well but barely is sexually fulfilling )

However, for many people, it is hard to understand that pain and suffering give joy to somebody. Even more difficult to understand is hard-core masochism

You need to "open up" for the concept prior to being able to make the experience.
I have had women experience an orgasm under the whip. But for most of the women, getting whipped would be unerotic and painful only. It starts in the mind...

But I am wondering if masochist personalities beyond martyrdom can be so heavily pronounced that he or she enjoys pain and injuries nearly without any limit. Are there perhaps pain addicts like there are addicts to drugs?

It's the same!
Pain addicts are drug addicts!
Endorphines, you named it!
And yes, it's an upward spiral that can get out of control... if the Dom, who is not under influence of endorphines, isn't responsible.

A few comments have sentences as if its writers would love to die on a cross. This is strange and hard to believe!

Not really.
Here we are entering into psychological aspects.
First: There are two types of subs:
- those who have discovered thrill and endorphines
- those who are subs out of a "self punishment" impulse... what can be a problem imho.
Second:
There is a lot of talk, 99% out of those who make such extreme statements would never actually venture into anything like this.
The talk itself is their excitement... take it as a fantasy and game.

 

[Fantasmo]

Especially in SM there is lot more words than action.

Amen!

 

[Fantasmo]

The Golden Rule is​

'Do to others what you'd want them to do to you'​

​

If I - as a masochist - went around obeying that rule,​

I'd soon be in deep trouble ​

(perhaps being punished?​

It's all very confusing .... )​

Hm, another example of toying with words?!

Do you really want to experience something that would cause you trouble if you did it to somebody else (in consent)?

(OK, in the age of increasing governmental intrusion into our bedrooms, using a whip can cause you trouble already, but that's a different story)

 

[messaline]

I have had women experience an orgasm under the whip. But for most of the women, getting whipped would be unerotic and painful only. It starts in the mind...

Yes and, there, we are joining the "imagination" of what we were speaking before: in my opinion, and my experience,no pleasure if imagination is not here to transcend the pain...
The pain is only the tool to induce the pleasure and if we'ren't conviced of that in using imagination, no result...

 

[Abendlaender]

There are such persons out there who do not only develope fantasies, but also act out their fantasies and not only one time. At any rate, a tiny minority of masochists would enjoy a real crucifixion!

In another discussion I had followed they have stated of Laurence of Arabia that he had not found out his masochist side before he had got in real trouble. So the mind is not the only source for masochist personalities.

Do you hold it possible that there are such masochists who get their kick in real troubling situations beyond BDSM plays like being in real imprisonned or tortured?

Alex

 

[Eulalia]

Do you hold it possible that there are such masochists who get their kick in real troubling situations beyond BDSM plays like being in real imprisoned or tortured?

I think T E Lawrence - like many English public schoolboys in those days
had first experienced the pleasure of being beaten while he was at school -
but he was certainly surprised to catch himself enjoying being whipped by his Turkish captors!

I don't think there's much doubt that some masochists do - and may even need -
to get their kick in situations where they're in "real trouble" and can't get out of it.
I certainly can't speak from experience, doubt whether it applies to me,
though I have experienced weird pleasure from pain associated with illness
(e.g. pains in my wrists that felt like they were being shackled or even nailed)

The pain is only the tool to induce the pleasure and if we aren't convinced of that in using imagination, no result...

That's a very thought-provoking thought, Messaline, thanks!

 

[Fantasmo]

Yes and, there, we are joining the "imagination" of what we were speaking before: in my opinion, and my experience,no pleasure if imagination is not here to transcend the pain...

I fully agree.
However it needn't necessarily be the "conscious mind cinema", it may also touch some things that are buried deeply in our personality and that we have not managed to catch and put in words.

The pain is only the tool to induce the pleasure and if we'ren't conviced of that in using imagination, no result...

I wouldn't put it in that very direct 1:1 relation, but generally I do agree...
Here we are at the different flowers under the large BDSM umbrella.
Some are more into "a little pain with vanilla flower", others are truly turned on if they are subjected and don't have a way out!
To a certain degree it doesn't matter for me as a dom if its one or the other.
To a certain degree...
... too much vanilla and it's not BDSM any more but rather carnival
... too much need for "harsh stuff" and I may get in trouble with limits that are set by common sense and responsibility!

 

[Fantasmo]

masochists who get their kick in real troubling situations beyond BDSM plays like being in real imprisonned or tortured?

There is not a sharp border line between the two.
Ultimately BDSM will stay interesting only if there is a certain amount of uncertainty and fear-/lustful anticipation.
If it's too predictable for the sub, the thrill will get lost...

The ideal situation for a sub is "being 100% sure that the real hard limits are respected, while looking forward to and also fearing (a bit) the next session".

 

[messaline]

A New Discussion ?​

​

In Cruxfoundation, we have a thread about Ste Agatha who has had cutted breasts as a torture to abjure her faith...​

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​

Some are thinking that many women have this fantasy; I dont know, but I'ld​

wish that women of this site could bring us their opinion about this fantasy,​

even if they dont have it....​

One question is coming to my brain: why a woman could be attracted by such a fantasy?​

Is it sexual ? For me , I think so: the fact to imagine that I could have cutted​

breasts bring to me a violent pleasure in all my body and , in particular, in my vagina, a pleasure near to orgasm, mostly if my nipples are excited by my Dom with "vampir's glove", by example...​

​

And you, men, what do you think of that?​

Is the fact to cut the breasts of a woman is exciting for you? (obviously​

only in fantasy: I've no doubt that you'll be unable to do really that!)​

Perhaps it's a sort of vengeance for you and for men who did that in ancient time:to destroy a symbol of feminity, the most visible, was the best manner to destroy the woman...​

​

So, I'm waiting your reactions ...Dont hesitate!​

​

Messaline​

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[admihoek]

A New Discussion ?​

In Cruxfoundation, we have a thread about Ste Agatha who has had cutted breasts as a torture to abjure her faith...

And you, men, what do you think of that?​

Is the fact to cut the breasts of a woman is exciting for you? (obviously
only in fantasy: I've no doubt that you'll be unable to do really that!)
Perhaps it's a sort of vengeance for you and for men who did that in ancient time:to destroy a symbol of feminity, the most visible, was the best manner to destroy the woman...

So, I'm waiting your reactions ...Dont hesitate!

Messaline

no............ here some of the pics marcus and lionrobe posted on foundation

 

[Eulalia]

Yes Messa, breast mutilation turns up in the legends of Roman-period virgin martyrs pretty well routinely -​

and it probably was routine, any slavegirl who found herself in the hands of the lictors,​

being tortured to confess to some crime - or even just to extract evidence against her owners -​

could expect to be stretched on the 'little horse' (a kind of rack)​

then have her breasts ripped with heated hooks.​

​

For me - and I guess most girls - rough handling of my breasts is very, very sexy,​

and the thought of breast-torture arouses me as it does you -​

but I don't fantasise about them being ripped off entirely,​

that would surely finish the erotic pleasure for our Torturers as well as for us.​

 

[shevak2006]

no............ here some of the pics marcus and lionrobe posted on foundation

Women were indeed tortured in horrible ways, but so were men. They didn't get away scot-free! I'm sure there were many versions of nut-crunchers/ball breakers around, as well as devices for mutilating penises. I do wonder why this is such a popular image in art of the period? It probably has a lot to do with her willingness to undergo mutilation rather than renounce her faith. But why the graphic depictions? More an indication of the violence that permeated life in genreal.