Jedakk's Masterpiece

[mp5stab]

As much as I like to see the remarks about nerve damage and the Anatomy reference drawings brought out, I have to say that trying to correct Jeddak about the finer physiological points of crucifixion is a lot like telling a fighter pilot how the wings produce lift. He definitely knows. I went through a claw hand phase, and it just kinda stiffled how much expressiveness I could get from the hands. Clenched in fists, curled in pain, somewhat relaxed, or somewhere between one of those; it adds a lot of humanity to the pose. Stilted hand posing can kill an otherwise great image. Imma be real; I think Jeddak took it very gracefully when Melania told him “This is how the wrist works” so Imma carry that grace forwards. It’s definitely something we think about, but motor nerve damage isn’t the part of the nerves the victim or executioner is focusing on.

Additionally, for all of you fine artists seeking an “out” while making plausible and realistic scenes, just remember that the nerve downs have to be split by the nail, just like every other part of the body it can be pushed aside, especially by a smallish blunt nail. Everyone has a different wrist, some people have muscles that other people don’t, there is a lot of connective tissue and tendons that may also be ruptured, so the hands could be compromised in more ways than one. So, for instance, a girl clenching her fists and the nails go in would have a different Nailing experience then a girl who is forced to keep her wrist flat with a knee on the palm of her hands. As those tendons got shifted frayed and damaged, who knows what the final hand shape would wind up being? The answer is of course what ever looks best in the art!

No, they escaped from Pompeii and came to Rome in August, and Sabina was crucified in October. So they both may have still been eighteen and nineteen.

Not to pick on Jeddak, who has truly made a remarkable historical fiction, but he has also certainly put some effort in to ensure that a teenage girl endures a crucifixion, instead of say, a 54 year old slave. Because that looks best in the art. He knows that the realism is there to serve the story he is trying to tell, and he tells it masterfully. You could, buy all means, tell him that most crucifixion would have featured hardened criminals and not petite teenagers. He knows, we know, that’s not the story he’s telling. It’s just the same with the wrist anatomy. I recall having exactly the same conversation about it once, a few years ago. It comes to every once in a while, so if an artist wants to show it, they will.

 

[michael lane]

As much as I like to see the remarks about nerve damage and the Anatomy reference drawings brought out, I have to say that trying to correct Jeddak about the finer physiological points of crucifixion is a lot like telling a fighter pilot how the wings produce lift. He definitely knows. I went through a claw hand phase, and it just kinda stiffled how much expressiveness I could get from the hands. Clenched in fists, curled in pain, somewhat relaxed, or somewhere between one of those; it adds a lot of humanity to the pose. Stilted hand posing can kill an otherwise great image. Imma be real; I think Jeddak took it very gracefully when Melania told him “This is how the wrist works” so Imma carry that grace forwards. It’s definitely something we think about, but motor nerve damage isn’t the part of the nerves the victim or executioner is focusing on.

Additionally, for all of you fine artists seeking an “out” while making plausible and realistic scenes, just remember that the nerve downs have to be split by the nail, just like every other part of the body it can be pushed aside, especially by a smallish blunt nail. Everyone has a different wrist, some people have muscles that other people don’t, there is a lot of connective tissue and tendons that may also be ruptured, so the hands could be compromised in more ways than one. So, for instance, a girl clenching her fists and the nails go in would have a different Nailing experience then a girl who is forced to keep her wrist flat with a knee on the palm of her hands. As those tendons got shifted frayed and damaged, who knows what the final hand shape would wind up being? The answer is of course what ever looks best in the art!

Not to pick on Jeddak, who has truly made a remarkable historical fiction, but he has also certainly put some effort in to ensure that a teenage girl endures a crucifixion, instead of say, a 54 year old slave. Because that looks best in the art. He knows that the realism is there to serve the story he is trying to tell, and he tells it masterfully. You could, buy all means, tell him that most crucifixion would have featured hardened criminals and not petite teenagers. He knows, we know, that’s not the story he’s telling. It’s just the same with the wrist anatomy. I recall having exactly the same conversation about it once, a few years ago. It comes to every once in a while, so if an artist wants to show it, they will.

too right

 

[Melania]

Hmm, well, if, as you say, the aesthetics should not be violated, then you can sacrifice realism. I just met Jedakk somewhere that he is trying to describe events as realistically as possible. I am amazed at his attention to detail - and there is such a discrepancy. I thought - what if this is a mistake? But apparently not. Jedhak wrote about other simplifications, that he deliberately avoids the defecation scene, but this was possible, it was natural for that time (in the new story, I remember he gracefully bypassed this topic, giving the victim a few days to starve). So this is the way. I love it anyway!

 

[malins]

Here's a recent (2019) paper on this subject

memorable quote from there,

'The median nerve pain ... is an exquisite, unrelenting, burning, searing, intense, utter torture, akin to lightning bolts. It is worse when the victim is lifted vertically and must pivot on the nail in order to breathe'

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

I went through a claw hand phase, and it just kinda stiffled how much expressiveness I could get from the hands. Clenched in fists, curled in pain, somewhat relaxed, or somewhere between one of those; it adds a lot of humanity to the pose.

Yes, it's all about the art in this case. I'm portraying a beautiful young girl crucified; I don't want her clawed hands to distract from her look as I pose her in different ways during the crucifixion process, even though I know that it's likely that's the way her hands would have looked.

However, note that the flexor tendons - the ones that bend the fingers inward - were never torn by the nail in any of the four cadavers where the nails pierced the wrists. The tendons were compressed, pushed aside as the nail passed between them. The pressure of the nail on the tendons caused the fingers to pull into a clawed shape. The extensor tendons on the back of the hand, the ones used to straighten the fingers, are not as closely bundled at the wrist as are the flexor tendons, and little effect on them from the nails seems to have been noted by the researchers. If there was a similar amount of pressure on those as the nails passed through, perhaps the fingers would have tended to straighten out again - but they didn't.

Let me stress that the flexor tendons were compressed, not torn. Further, these were cadavers, not living people, so they made no effort to straighten out their fingers or move them after their wrists were nailed. We don't know whether they could have pulled them at least partially straight or not. We don't know how painful that would have been. And we almost certainly never will know.

What I'm saying is, it is not established that a crucifixion victim's hands would remain in a clawed shape. It may have been possible for them to move and straighten the fingers, although it might have been painful for them to do so.

he has also certainly put some effort in to ensure that a teenage girl endures a crucifixion, instead of say, a 54 year old slave.

That's true! I think in most cases a pretty young slave girl would have been sold rather than crucified. Sabina was sitting on a gold mine, Balbus knew it and tried to buy her, but Julia Lepida wouldn't sell. He kept hoping she would have a change of heart, right up to the point of no return when Antius drove the first nail.

In order to make the story somewhat plausible, Sabina had to do something that would get her crucified, not just sold, and striking her domina would probably have been enough to ensure that. And yes, I wanted Sabina to be young, so that's the way I wrote the story. Ultimately I wanted to put a pretty young girl on a cross, so I created a scenario to do that, then embellished it with detail.

You could, buy all means, tell him that most crucifixion would have featured hardened criminals and not petite teenagers.

Absolutely! But there were cases where hundreds of slaves were crucified because their master had been murdered by someone in the household. I have two cases like that, one where a slave murdered his master and four hundred slaves were crucified, another where the murderer framed the slaves for their master's murder and had them all crucified. Among all those slaves there were probably some pretty young girls, too.

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

memorable quote from there,

'The median nerve pain ... is an exquisite, unrelenting, burning, searing, intense, utter torture, akin to lightning bolts. It is worse when the victim is lifted vertically and must pivot on the nail in order to breathe'

Yes, that's a quote from Dr. Zugibe. Maybe it's even right. I don't trust his research too much, because he relied on the Shroud of Turin and religious art, working backward from the typical pose shown on a crucifix, making his data support that, not taking fatigue and time into account enough when he drew his conclusions.

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

Hmm, well, if, as you say, the aesthetics should not be violated, then you can sacrifice realism.

Well, yeah, but there is a limit for me. I won't utterly ignore physics or physiology just to get a pretty picture, not and call it fiction rather than fantasy. If I don't want my victim to defecate while on the cross, I have to create a reason why she wouldn't rather than pretend that it won't happen.

 

[Jollyrei]

If I don't want my victim to defecate while on the cross, I have to create a reason why she wouldn't rather than pretend that it won't happen.

I don't know. There are any number of novels, movies, etc. where basic bodily requirements of that sort are totally ignored. I mean, look at fighter pilots - they go on these long missions in their planes, none of which have terlets or washrooms. Presumably there is some sort of preparation made for this so that pilots are not constantly defecating all over themselves, but this is conveniently not discussed in "Top Gun".

Something to consider for anyone thinking of the "romantic" life of a fighter pilot.

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

I don't know. There are any number of novels, movies, etc. where basic bodily requirements of that sort are totally ignored. I mean, look at fighter pilots - they go on these long missions in their planes, none of which have terlets or washrooms. Presumably there is some sort of preparation made for this so that pilots are not constantly defecating all over themselves, but this is conveniently not discussed in "Top Gun".

Something to consider for anyone thinking of the "romantic" life of a fighter pilot.

It occurred to me when thinking of writing about armies standing and waiting for maybe hours for the order to charge. Somebody's probably going to have to go, and I don't suppose they are going to be able to just run over to a convenient stand of trees to do it. Urinating is easy enough, but defecating in the middle of the ranks might make you unpopular with your brothers in arms very quickly.

Reminds me of my own fairly recent experience: I sing bass in a church choir - yes, really I do. For a couple of years, I had a guy next to me who had Alzheimer's pretty badly, never could remember my name. I'm pretty sure he wore a diaper and occasionally filled it up during church. No way to escape the stench, which you couldn't ignore while trying to sing. Just pray the sermon would be short today! Must have been somewhat like that in those ranks of Roman legionaries waiting for battle.

 

[Kav]

As much as I like to see the remarks about nerve damage and the Anatomy reference drawings brought out, I have to say that trying to correct Jeddak about the finer physiological points of crucifixion is a lot like telling a fighter pilot how the wings produce lift. He definitely knows. I went through a claw hand phase, and it just kinda stiffled how much expressiveness I could get from the hands. Clenched in fists, curled in pain, somewhat relaxed, or somewhere between one of those; it adds a lot of humanity to the pose. Stilted hand posing can kill an otherwise great image. Imma be real; I think Jeddak took it very gracefully when Melania told him “This is how the wrist works” so Imma carry that grace forwards. It’s definitely something we think about, but motor nerve damage isn’t the part of the nerves the victim or executioner is focusing on.

Additionally, for all of you fine artists seeking an “out” while making plausible and realistic scenes, just remember that the nerve downs have to be split by the nail, just like every other part of the body it can be pushed aside, especially by a smallish blunt nail. Everyone has a different wrist, some people have muscles that other people don’t, there is a lot of connective tissue and tendons that may also be ruptured, so the hands could be compromised in more ways than one. So, for instance, a girl clenching her fists and the nails go in would have a different Nailing experience then a girl who is forced to keep her wrist flat with a knee on the palm of her hands. As those tendons got shifted frayed and damaged, who knows what the final hand shape would wind up being? The answer is of course what ever looks best in the art!

Not to pick on Jeddak, who has truly made a remarkable historical fiction, but he has also certainly put some effort in to ensure that a teenage girl endures a crucifixion, instead of say, a 54 year old slave. Because that looks best in the art. He knows that the realism is there to serve the story he is trying to tell, and he tells it masterfully. You could, buy all means, tell him that most crucifixion would have featured hardened criminals and not petite teenagers. He knows, we know, that’s not the story he’s telling. It’s just the same with the wrist anatomy. I recall having exactly the same conversation about it once, a few years ago. It comes to every once in a while, so if an artist wants to show it, they will.

Here Here

 

[Kav]

A mature 54 yo woman eh?


mmmm

That sounds delicious.

 

[Jollyrei]

Reminds me of my own fairly recent experience: I sing bass in a church choir - yes, really I do.

I used to sing counter-tenor in a choir, up until about 4 years ago.
Never had to worry about people in "diapers" - the worst I had was a tenor who sat next to me with really bad halitosis.

I'll take crucifixion in the fresh air, thanks very much.

 

[malins]

Yes, that's a quote from Dr. Zugibe. Maybe it's even right. I don't trust his research too much, because he relied on the Shroud of Turin and religious art, working backward from the typical pose shown on a crucifix, making his data support that, not taking fatigue and time into account enough when he drew his conclusions.

Yes there seems to be quite a bit of backwards reasoning going on ... basically assuming the 'Shroud' does actually contain the traces of a body crucified the Roman way, assuming that whatever can be seen or not seen on that cloth (such as thumb position) accurately represents the pose while on the cross, etc., and therefore so we can get the shroud it must have happened this or that way ...

 

[Marcius]

Yes there seems to be quite a bit of backwards reasoning going on ... basically assuming the 'Shroud' does actually contain the traces of a body crucified the Roman way, assuming that whatever can be seen or not seen on that cloth (such as thumb position) accurately represents the pose while on the cross, etc., and therefore so we can get the shroud it must have happened this or that way ...

Sindonology (the fancy word for Shroud studies) has produced some interesting papers -- on the subject of scourges, for example. But it's theology rather than history; relying on their favourite cloth can lead those researchers into temptation to ignore things that don't fit.

 

[malins]

Sindonology (the fancy word for Shroud studies)

well I have to admit I've never heard that word before

 

[Deleted member jedakk]

well I have to admit I've never heard that word before

Marcius knows more English than I do, and it's not even his first language!

 

[phlebas]

Sindonology (the fancy word for Shroud studies) has produced some interesting papers -- on the subject of scourges, for example. But it's theology rather than history; relying on their favourite cloth can lead those researchers into temptation to ignore things that don't fit.

It's a fascinating field, the item itself is a wonder, whatever it's origins. I love the theory that a folded version of it could have been the Byzantine relic the Veronica, supposedly the cloth St Veronica wiped the face of Jesus with on the Via Dolorosa, a relic that Byzantine armies sometimes carried into battle.


Twenty years ago there was a website that revealed the existence of a female shroud, I saved the whole site

 

[Melania]

This, of course, is of some interest, but I read in several sources that the Turin Shroud was often forged, as a result of which the history numbers from 20 to a hundred "originals" of this subject. I also know from somewhere that the Catholic Church officially recognized some of the shroud as genuine. This goes against logic. Perhaps then they themselves got confused. Now, I'm afraid it is difficult to determine the authenticity of any of them by 100%, because the fakes were created of very high quality. However, the same was true of the holy relics. There were several heads of John the Baptist alone.

 

[poem21045]

This, of course, is of some interest, but I read in several sources that the Turin Shroud was often forged, as a result of which the history numbers from 20 to a hundred "originals" of this subject. I also know from somewhere that the Catholic Church officially recognized some of the shroud as genuine. This goes against logic. Perhaps then they themselves got confused. Now, I'm afraid it is difficult to determine the authenticity of any of them by 100%, because the fakes were created of very high quality. However, the same was true of the holy relics. There were several heads of John the Baptist alone.

it's a topic shrouded in doubt.

 

[Melania]

That is why I am skeptical about the conclusions drawn from this story. This refers to the shroud, not the tale of the tough master Jedakk.