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Notre-Dame ...

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The theory is coming up of an electrical short circuit, in one of the lifts of the construction company.
Did you not read what I was saying about this ?

Are you joking ? All the lifts used here are separated from the monument with an interval of 6 meters and when the work is finished, the electricity is closed and the electricity'box also closed with a key handed over the chief of the construction : so, I cant see how a lift could put the fire to the edifcice !
Yet a false new that some medias like to make a scoop !!!
 
Did you not read what I was saying about this ?
Hi Messaline! What you previously stated was useful and valuable because it completes our information, but kindly allow me to note underneath :
- as far as I know, following the daily news on TV (same as, I believe, Loxuru did) the theory of electrical short circuit in one of the lifts
keeps being considered by the Investigators. I did not hear however of any official confirmation as yet: it is correct to suppose that
technical details as well as detailed chronicle of the events will come along with more complete information of the succession of the events
- far from contraddicting your notes and with all procedures respected as indicated by you, fortuitous incontrollable elements could
have been determinant ( direction of the wind which fed up occasional sparks from any source close to electrical wires or equipment, including the lifts and/or any other cause no matter how much absurd it may seem): a lot has been said within this Forum on this argument: please let it open till its definition for which a bit of patience and some time are needed.

-a new detail had filtered yesterday indicating that the scaffoldings on the Cathedral's side facing the Seine were the first one subject to the fire's attack: let's wait to learn more about this too.
- The source of my information is the italian State controlled TV first Channel (RAI 1): this is the top professional TV in Italy.
I frankly doubt they would put in jeopardy their consolidated italian (also european )prestige with 'fakes' or omit control of their
sources.
I will be grateful to you for your attention to the above.
I seize the opportunity to wish you a very happy Easter!!
 
You're joking, right? Eastern North America is full of oak forests. I could find that many within an hour's drive of my house (Dear NY Dept of Environmental Conservation: I didn't say I would cut them down and ship them to France without a permit:eek:).
The issue seems to be with matching the type of wood used in the original construction and it may not be as big an issue as some believe.
http://fortune.com/2019/04/16/notre-dame-after-fire-rebuild/
If Messaline has any connections with the French government (through her Premium French Wood franchise) I would like to suggest that they get timber from multiple countries, there by making it an international roof.
 
If Messaline has any connections with the French government (through her Premium French Wood franchise) I would like to suggest that they get timber from multiple countries, there by making it an international roof.

And let’s set all tariffs and artificial trade barriers aside.
 
Hi Messaline! What you previously stated was useful and valuable because it completes our information, but kindly allow me to note underneath :
- as far as I know, following the daily news on TV (same as, I believe, Loxuru did) the theory of electrical short circuit in one of the lifts
keeps being considered by the Investigators. I did not hear however of any official confirmation as yet: it is correct to suppose that
technical details as well as detailed chronicle of the events will come along with more complete information of the succession of the events
- far from contraddicting your notes and with all procedures respected as indicated by you, fortuitous incontrollable elements could
have been determinant ( direction of the wind which fed up occasional sparks from any source close to electrical wires or equipment, including the lifts and/or any other cause no matter how much absurd it may seem): a lot has been said within this Forum on this argument: please let it open till its definition for which a bit of patience and some time are needed.

-a new detail had filtered yesterday indicating that the scaffoldings on the Cathedral's side facing the Seine were the first one subject to the fire's attack: let's wait to learn more about this too.
- The source of my information is the italian State controlled TV first Channel (RAI 1): this is the top professional TV in Italy.
I frankly doubt they would put in jeopardy their consolidated italian (also european )prestige with 'fakes' or omit control of their
sources.
I will be grateful to you for your attention to the above.
I seize the opportunity to wish you a very happy Easter!!

OK ! In fact, all is possible , Hammers ; I heard what I said from the boss of the lift'society , but perhaps that the instructions were not well respected too ...
Wait and see ... ;)
 
Hi Messaline! What you previously stated was useful and valuable because it completes our information, but kindly allow me to note underneath :
- as far as I know, following the daily news on TV (same as, I believe, Loxuru did) the theory of electrical short circuit in one of the lifts
keeps being considered by the Investigators. I did not hear however of any official confirmation as yet: it is correct to suppose that
technical details as well as detailed chronicle of the events will come along with more complete information of the succession of the events
- far from contraddicting your notes and with all procedures respected as indicated by you, fortuitous incontrollable elements could
have been determinant ( direction of the wind which fed up occasional sparks from any source close to electrical wires or equipment, including the lifts and/or any other cause no matter how much absurd it may seem): a lot has been said within this Forum on this argument: please let it open till its definition for which a bit of patience and some time are needed.

-a new detail had filtered yesterday indicating that the scaffoldings on the Cathedral's side facing the Seine were the first one subject to the fire's attack: let's wait to learn more about this too.
- The source of my information is the italian State controlled TV first Channel (RAI 1): this is the top professional TV in Italy.
I frankly doubt they would put in jeopardy their consolidated italian (also european )prestige with 'fakes' or omit control of their
sources.
I will be grateful to you for your attention to the above.
I seize the opportunity to wish you a very happy Easter!!
Let me think out loud about this. If I make you feel sleepy, well at least you won't need a pill (or a Seagram's) tonight.

Current flows through a conductor if there is a voltage difference between the ends. Generally, the amount of current (for a given conductor) dictates how much heat is generated (which would likely be the cause of the fire). That's why the old-style light bulbs with filaments would "burn out" when they were turned on. When the filaments were cold, they conducted electricity more easily so there was more current and more heat and they could melt.

Some things, like air, are not good conductors. But given enough voltage, the current will find its way (think lightning).

"Turned off" means a switch was thrown--basically the path through the conductor was interrupted. Certainly the elevator wasn't in constant motion, so there was a switch to activate it when someone wanted to use it--the switch created a conducting path for the electricity, like bringing the ends of two wires together . But here "turned off" probably means more than that--it was unplugged, like a lamp--so throwing the elevator switch wouldn't help. There was no "juice".

The ignition system in a car works with electricity, which is used to ignite the gasoline (basically the "cylinders" drive the car using controlled gasoline explosions). My simple understanding is that there is a rod with a gap, surrounded by a coil. Turning the key creates a path to the coil from the battery, current flows in the coil, the causes a magnetic effect, and the two ends of the rod are forced together. This allows a current (quite a bit) from the battery to flow through the rod, ignite the gasoline, and boom, you're off. The battery is the source of the electricity. You plug the car's engine into the battery. (Once a fossil-fuel car is running, you don't need the battery any more, because some of the motion of the engine is used to generate electricity to ignite the fuel--and "recharge" the battery.)

There is battery analogue called a capacitor--basically two plates with different charges (so a voltage difference between them) with something between them that won't conduct electricity below a certain threshold. These things can produce current when the threshold is reached or when some other connection (a short) is made--current flows between the plates.

So, the elevators are unplugged from EDF's grid. The only possible sources for current (and therefore heat) are internal sources in the motors in the elevators. There may be batteries. If there are areas in the motor held at different voltages, they can act like a capacitor. Normally, there isn't a path between them, so no current, no heat. But a "short" means a conducting path is created (like two bare wires where the insulation has worn off touching). If the ends of the "short" are at different voltages, current can flow (even if it isn't coming from EDF), you get heat, and you start your fire.

I am not an expert on elevator motors, or any kind of motor. But any electric motor is probably going to be susceptible to an accidental short, even if it isn't "plugged in", and one hefty enough to power an elevator probably could generate enough internal current to catch fire. Or, since the elevators were probably "uplugged" using a switch to EDF's grid, a short in that switch could have allowed current to flow into the system as well.

Voltta, they guy for whom "voltage" is named, was from Italia, wasn't he?
 
There may be batteries.
I'm certainly no expert on elevators - though I've learnt a little about the one in the building where my apartment is -
and I think even one on a temporary site as at N-D would have some back-up, presumably battery-powered,
in case the main power fails while it's operating?
 
Let me think out loud about this. If I make you feel sleepy, well at least you won't need a pill (or a Seagram's) tonight.

Current flows through a conductor if there is a voltage difference between the ends. Generally, the amount of current (for a given conductor) dictates how much heat is generated (which would likely be the cause of the fire). That's why the old-style light bulbs with filaments would "burn out" when they were turned on. When the filaments were cold, they conducted electricity more easily so there was more current and more heat and they could melt.

Some things, like air, are not good conductors. But given enough voltage, the current will find its way (think lightning).

"Turned off" means a switch was thrown--basically the path through the conductor was interrupted. Certainly the elevator wasn't in constant motion, so there was a switch to activate it when someone wanted to use it--the switch created a conducting path for the electricity, like bringing the ends of two wires together . But here "turned off" probably means more than that--it was unplugged, like a lamp--so throwing the elevator switch wouldn't help. There was no "juice".

The ignition system in a car works with electricity, which is used to ignite the gasoline (basically the "cylinders" drive the car using controlled gasoline explosions). My simple understanding is that there is a rod with a gap, surrounded by a coil. Turning the key creates a path to the coil from the battery, current flows in the coil, the causes a magnetic effect, and the two ends of the rod are forced together. This allows a current (quite a bit) from the battery to flow through the rod, ignite the gasoline, and boom, you're off. The battery is the source of the electricity. You plug the car's engine into the battery. (Once a fossil-fuel car is running, you don't need the battery any more, because some of the motion of the engine is used to generate electricity to ignite the fuel--and "recharge" the battery.)

There is battery analogue called a capacitor--basically two plates with different charges (so a voltage difference between them) with something between them that won't conduct electricity below a certain threshold. These things can produce current when the threshold is reached or when some other connection (a short) is made--current flows between the plates.

So, the elevators are unplugged from EDF's grid. The only possible sources for current (and therefore heat) are internal sources in the motors in the elevators. There may be batteries. If there are areas in the motor held at different voltages, they can act like a capacitor. Normally, there isn't a path between them, so no current, no heat. But a "short" means a conducting path is created (like two bare wires where the insulation has worn off touching). If the ends of the "short" are at different voltages, current can flow (even if it isn't coming from EDF), you get heat, and you start your fire.

I am not an expert on elevator motors, or any kind of motor. But any electric motor is probably going to be susceptible to an accidental short, even if it isn't "plugged in", and one hefty enough to power an elevator probably could generate enough internal current to catch fire. Or, since the elevators were probably "uplugged" using a switch to EDF's grid, a short in that switch could have allowed current to flow into the system as well.

Voltta, they guy for whom "voltage" is named, was from Italia, wasn't he?
By the way, Lithium batteries are notorious for "shorting out" (basically during recharging Li crystals grow into space between the "anode" and the "cathode", connect the two, and cause a short and current flows). Boeing had to ground some planes to fix battery problems, and I think most airlines do not allow Li batteries in the cargo holds. People's phones have burst into flames as well. It doesn't happen often, but it's a big topic in battery research.
 
I don't believe there would be backup batteries involved in this circuitry as France uses 230 volt 3 phase 50 Hz in industrial applications. Batteries would not generate enough power for the large motors in an industrial lift more likely to have a backup generator set. It would require a very large bank of batteries and a large current inverter to convert the battery's DC voltage to AC to power the 3 phase equipment. We also use 230 V 3 phase in the US only at 60Hz and it is split off into 230 v single phase for dwellings and then further split into two 115 v circuits in the house. As for the elevators they should have what is called a main disconnect, usually a large metal box with high amperage fuses inside and a large metal handle on the outside which is generally shut off at the end of the work day and that kills all current going to the equipment. Now it is possible that one of the motors or any other equipment was overheated during the shift and caused an ignition before the system was shut down but once the disconnect is thrown things should start to cool down until it's restarted.

Now for a short to occur you must have line voltage present and two conductors touching between the power supply and the motors. The motors provide resistance to the input power to use up some of the amperage applied to the line. A short is two sides of the line touching with no resistance thus a very high amperage flows through the short and that produces high heat (the wires can glow red hot) and would definitely cause a fire in any combustible material nearby. Now I would have thought that the work shift would have an electrician assigned to take care of any problems and be sure that everything is properly shut down at the end of shift, that's the way we operate here. I assume France is Unionized. But then again we are doing a lot of guessing on what happened and where. It's my understanding that the authorities are trying to determine exactly where the blaze began and that should be a start. The Rector even mentions a computer glitch so I believe they are still grasping for straws. I believe after the Easter Holidays we will see something more factual. (I am by the way a former millwright and I've worked industrial maintenance my entire life servicing everything from 5 v. DC control circuits to 460 V 3 phase industrial circuits with 150 HP electric motors.) But that doesn't mean I know everything, we shall see in the coming days I believe, providing the authorities tell us the truth, they sure won't over here. ;)
 
I don't believe there would be backup batteries involved in this circuitry as France uses 230 volt 3 phase 50 Hz in industrial applications. Batteries would not generate enough power for the large motors in an industrial lift more likely to have a backup generator set. It would require a very large bank of batteries and a large current inverter to convert the battery's DC voltage to AC to power the 3 phase equipment. We also use 230 V 3 phase in the US only at 60Hz and it is split off into 230 v single phase for dwellings and then further split into two 115 v circuits in the house. As for the elevators they should have what is called a main disconnect, usually a large metal box with high amperage fuses inside and a large metal handle on the outside which is generally shut off at the end of the work day and that kills all current going to the equipment. Now it is possible that one of the motors or any other equipment was overheated during the shift and caused an ignition before the system was shut down but once the disconnect is thrown things should start to cool down until it's restarted.

Now for a short to occur you must have line voltage present and two conductors touching between the power supply and the motors. The motors provide resistance to the input power to use up some of the amperage applied to the line. A short is two sides of the line touching with no resistance thus a very high amperage flows through the short and that produces high heat (the wires can glow red hot) and would definitely cause a fire in any combustible material nearby. Now I would have thought that the work shift would have an electrician assigned to take care of any problems and be sure that everything is properly shut down at the end of shift, that's the way we operate here. I assume France is Unionized. But then again we are doing a lot of guessing on what happened and where. It's my understanding that the authorities are trying to determine exactly where the blaze began and that should be a start. The Rector even mentions a computer glitch so I believe they are still grasping for straws. I believe after the Easter Holidays we will see something more factual. (I am by the way a former millwright and I've worked industrial maintenance my entire life servicing everything from 5 v. DC control circuits to 460 V 3 phase industrial circuits with 150 HP electric motors.) But that doesn't mean I know everything, we shall see in the coming days I believe, providing the authorities tell us the truth, they sure won't over here. ;)

Foggybottom sounds like he has some engineering expertise;)
 
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