Roman Resources

[Eulalia]

I've attached the original article, it certainly is of interest.

Very interesting, not only the very detailed report of the find and its forensic examination,
but a useful review of the scholarly literature on the process of crucifixion,
and some interesting thoughts on the possible position of the crucified on the cross
(one possibility would appeal to admirers of 'obscene display' )

 

[Eulalia]

There's a pretty thick scholarly book on the subject, Latin Forms of Address From Plautus to Apuleius by Eleanor Dickey. The nature of evidence makes all conclusions tentative, but she could've called the other woman a) by name; b) mater 'mother', if she was well disposed towards her; c) anus 'old woman', if not; and d) there's quite a lot of endearments. Anima mea 'my soul', if being effusive?

I think, at least in later vernacular Latin, 'nonna' was used for an older, respected lady
(including grandmother, as it still means in Italian) - it became 'nun' in English.

 

[Apostate]

Very interesting, not only the very detailed report of the find and its forensic examination,
but a useful review of the scholarly literature on the process of crucifixion,
and some interesting thoughts on the possible position of the crucified on the cross
(one possibility would appeal to admirers of 'obscene display' )

It is to be hoped.

But the first thing that came to mind was one of the reconstructions of "The Crucified Man" dug up in Jerusalem in 1968.

 

[Apostate]

And she was the second thing that came to mind. More up the obscene display alley.

 

[Eulalia]

Yes, the main difference in the new sketch is that he's sitting on a sedile,
with his wrists nailed to the front of the cross-bar,
and his heels nailed so his legs are splayed wide.

 

[Frank Petrexa]

I think some of those - the guys in Legio X in the first and some of the other images - look to me like
a well-known British group of Roman re-enactors, who do go to considerable lengths to achieve authenticity.

I still have to think that the shield designs are distinctive. Otherwise, in the very common legion-on-legion battles which decided the next emporer in many cases it would be very difficult to tell friend from foe. You can't get to know everybody in your legion, even without the helmets and armor.

 

[Eulalia]

I've found this page from an ms of the Notititia Dignitatum which shows shield boss designs supposed to be associated with different 'units' (legions etc.)



I'm not sure how much certainty we can have about this, ND is a late document (relates to the situation in the western Empire ca 400),
it presents a great many problems of interpretation, and that ms is from the 15th ct, though maybe based on earlier sources. It would make sense for different units to have some distinguishing marks, certainly - though bear in mind, unlike medieval knights, Roman soldiers didn't generally expect to be fighting enemies wearing similar armour and carrying similar shields to their own. Also, the armourers attached to particular units probably had their own distinctive styles. But I'm still doubtful whether there was a regulated system of legionary symbols (on shields, standards or whatever) comparable to modern regimental badges etc., or late medieval heraldry.

 

[thehangingtree]

I've found this page from an ms of the Notititia Dignitatum which shows shield boss designs supposed to be associated with different 'units' (legions etc.)

View attachment 594688

I'm not sure how much certainty we can have about this, ND is a late document (relates to the situation in the western Empire ca 400),
it presents a great many problems of interpretation, and that ms is from the 15th ct, though maybe based on earlier sources. It would make sense for different units to have some distinguishing marks, certainly - though bear in mind, unlike medieval knights, Roman soldiers didn't generally expect to be fighting enemies wearing similar armour and carrying similar shields to their own. Also, the armourers attached to particular units probably had their own distinctive styles. But I'm still doubtful whether there was a regulated system of legionary symbols (on shields, standards or whatever) comparable to modern regimental badges etc., or late medieval heraldry.

Tree uses this one...

 

[Marcius]

...It would make sense for different units to have some distinguishing marks, certainly - though bear in mind, unlike medieval knights, Roman soldiers didn't generally expect to be fighting enemies wearing similar armour and carrying similar shields to their own. ...

Given that Roman soldiers were doing just that, sometimes on a grand scale, decade after decade during the 1st century BC, I guess Marius and Sulla, Caesar and Pompey, the Triumvirs and the Liberators and the Triumvirs going at it between themselves had to introduce some ways for their soldiers to distinguish friend from foe, and varying shield designs seem to me the easiest approach.

 

[Madiosi]

I've found this page from an ms of the Notititia Dignitatum which shows shield boss designs supposed to be associated with different 'units' (legions etc.)

View attachment 594688

I'm not sure how much certainty we can have about this, ND is a late document (relates to the situation in the western Empire ca 400),
it presents a great many problems of interpretation, and that ms is from the 15th ct, though maybe based on earlier sources. It would make sense for different units to have some distinguishing marks, certainly - though bear in mind, unlike medieval knights, Roman soldiers didn't generally expect to be fighting enemies wearing similar armour and carrying similar shields to their own. Also, the armourers attached to particular units probably had their own distinctive styles. But I'm still doubtful whether there was a regulated system of legionary symbols (on shields, standards or whatever) comparable to modern regimental badges etc., or late medieval heraldry.

Maybe a design blue print for modern vacuum cleaner:

 

[Eulalia]

Given that Roman soldiers were doing just that, sometimes on a grand scale, decade after decade during the 1st century BC, I guess Marius and Sulla, Caesar and Pompey, the Triumvirs and the Liberators and the Triumvirs going at it between themselves had to introduce some ways for their soldiers to distinguish friend from foe, and varying shield designs seem to me the easiest approach.

True enough. And by the time of the ND, most of the 'Romans' in the armies were barbarians of any kind you can think of, it would certainly have been tricky telling friend from foe!

 

[l'bogo]

I've found this page from an ms of the Notititia Dignitatum which shows shield boss designs supposed to be associated with different 'units' (legions etc.)

View attachment 594688

I'm not sure how much certainty we can have about this, ND is a late document (relates to the situation in the western Empire ca 400),
it presents a great many problems of interpretation, and that ms is from the 15th ct, though maybe based on earlier sources. It would make sense for different units to have some distinguishing marks, certainly - though bear in mind, unlike medieval knights, Roman soldiers didn't generally expect to be fighting enemies wearing similar armour and carrying similar shields to their own. Also, the armourers attached to particular units probably had their own distinctive styles. But I'm still doubtful whether there was a regulated system of legionary symbols (on shields, standards or whatever) comparable to modern regimental badges etc., or late medieval heraldry.

Legio




Shields

 

[Eulalia]

Those certainly look plausible vexillae and shield designs, but I wonder what authority there is for them, what sources?

 

[l'bogo]

Those certainly look plausible vexillae and shield designs, but I wonder what authority there is for them, what sources?

https://www.romanoimpero.com/
also in English.

 

[Eulalia]

Our old friend the Notitia Dignitatum!
It's an important document, but devilishly difficult to interpret in many respects,
and part of the trouble is the manuscripts only date from 15th - 16th centuries -
we can't be sure how accurate those illustrations are, after more than a millennium of copying,
or even whether they go back to the original, probably c400, or were added later.

 

[RacingRodent]

https://www.romanoimpero.com/
also in English.

Really grateful for the link l'bogo it is a fabulous site.

Our old friend the Notitia Dignitatum!

A hugely important document whom Eul is not alone in regarding as an old friend. It covers a period much later than the Rome commonly seen on the Hollywood screen but it is hugely telling about the organisation of the late Roman administration and armies.

 

[Apostate]

https://www.romanoimpero.com/
also in English.

l'bogo, I can puzzle out the gist of the Italian, but I’m glad there’s an English version. Grazi!

 

[cruxlover]

Is a 'pub' and 'bar' similar?

T

As the WWII US serviceman, stationed near York, wrote in a letter home (or so the story goes):
York is a city where:
Streets are called Gates.
Gates are called Bars, and
Bars are called Pubs.

 

[Madiosi]

As the WWII US serviceman, stationed near York, wrote in a letter home (or so the story goes):
York is a city where:
Streets are called Gates.
Gates are called Bars, and
Bars are called Pubs.
View attachment 595030

We have in Germany also a city of three lies. Her name: Goldberg (Gold-Mount). No City, no gold, no mount.

 

[Barbaria1]

????