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mp5stab said:
I’m just going to block quote that CX PDF with a few small modifications. That’s why we have an answer to the inevitable noob question of “how does crucifixion kill?”


Respiratory and cardiovascular failure were two of the most likely causes of death in crucified women. The first proposed cause of death, now widely accepted as the main cause, was asphyxiation (LeBec, 1925; Davis, 1965; Maslen and Mitchell, 2006). Over time, breathing required increased effort as muscles became exhausted. The resting position of the woman’s body was such that the arms were outstretched, the knees bent, and the breasts sagged forward. Collectively, these aspects placed the entire weight on her wrists. The tension applied to the pectoral muscles pulled the chest wall and the breasts upward and outward, which decreased the work of inspiration and drastically increased the work of expiration (Furlong, 1952; Eduard et al., 2017).

As vital capacity and expiratory reserve volumes decreased, the woman would have developed functional respiratory acidosis. In order to exhale sufficiently, she would have needed to straighten her knees, flex her elbows, adduct the shoulders, and push her tortured body upward on the nail-impaled upper limbs (Lumpkin, 1978). Over the course of hours to days, large-scale organ failure would have set in, muscles would have weakened, and lactic acid would have accumulated, expediting systemic decompensation (Retief and Cilliers, 2003). The crucified woman would ultimately have been unable to lift her body enough to breathe sufficiently, leading to death by asphyxiation.

Experiments conducted by Mödder (1948), in which healthy medical students were hung by the wrists, revealed signs of decompensation within 12 min as the blood pressure halved, tidal volume decreased by 70%, and pulse pressure doubled. Breathing at this stage, with arms fully extended, was purely diaphrag- matic. When the subjects were allowed to use their legs to lift the torso against gravity, the cardiovascular symptoms improved until the muscles fatigued and the vicious cycle continued.

Some sources mention death due to extraneous fac- tors such as hypovolemia, cardiac arrest, and cardiac tamponade (Retief and Cilliers, 2003; Bergeron, 2012). Extreme dehydration leads to depletion of intracellular and extracellular volume, which decreases cardiac out- put and leads to hypovolemic shock and subsequent organ failure (Gordon and Shapiro, 1975). The same occurs in the event of exsanguination due to major vascular injury or bone fracture. In order to expedite death, executioners could use a hammer to fracture the tibia and fibula, resulting in death due to internal bleeding and hastened respiratory depression (Barbet, 1953; Eduard et al., 2017). Haas (1970) claimed to have found evidence of tibial fracture in the crucified remains found in Israel; however, those findings were deemed inconclusive by Zias and Sekeles (1985).
Cardiac arrest can present with exaggerated vaso- vagal reflexes due to excruciating pain or pleural disruption from a fractured rib (Retief and Cilliers, 2003). Cardiac tamponade, in which serous fluid accumulates within the pericardial sac, is possible following blunt trauma to the chest, which could have been caused by the abovementioned precrucifixion rituals (Retief and Cilliers, 2003). Finally, it is noted that guards would occasionally set a smoldering fire at the base of the woman’s cross to expedite death by suffocation (Schulte, 1983; Edwards et al., 1986).
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If you're properly crucified, as in an actual stress position, even with straps or ropes you're exhausted and in agony within minutes and I expect most of the action would be over within 30 mins....

Without a sedie.

A proper sedile is max six inches long, and is no mercy. It takes a whole different effort using different muscles to stay on it adding new episodes to a longer death
 
jacksjg89 said:
Tough question that maybe some of you guys could help with. Obviously, there were a lot of Barbarian tribes during the Roman republic, and they did not do a lot of writing, but does anyone know how the Celts or Gauls named their offspring? In Roman it’s given name and Clan name, but did all the Barbarians only go by one name?
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Barbarians - and Romans for that matter - were often known by nicknames or honorifics. A person might have had one name at birth but acquire a new name in adulthood that might refer to a physical feature or personal achievement, and this may be the name he would be know by to history. The Celtic leader know to us as Vercingetorix, likely had a different name. Vercingetorix seems to be a Celtic title that translates (roughly) as "warrior king" or "king of warriors". Additionally, the names of many historical barbarians are actually Latinized versions or names that the Romans (or Greeks, or Christian monks, or whoever wrote the history) gave them. One famous example is Arminius, the German leader who defeated Varus at Teutoburg Forest. It's most likely that his real name was some variation on Hermann and he may have taken the name Arminius when he served with the Roman Army.
 
Naraku said:
Barbarians - and Romans for that matter - were often known by nicknames or honorifics. A person might have had one name at birth but acquire a new name in adulthood that might refer to a physical feature or personal achievement, and this may be the name he would be know by to history. The Celtic leader know to us as Vercingetorix, likely had a different name. Vercingetorix seems to be a Celtic title that translates (roughly) as "warrior king" or "king of warriors". Additionally, the names of many historical barbarians are actually Latinized versions or names that the Romans (or Greeks, or Christian monks, or whoever wrote the history) gave them. One famous example is Arminius, the German leader who defeated Varus at Teutoburg Forest. It's most likely that his real name was some variation on Hermann and he may have taken the name Arminius when he served with the Roman Army.
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This applies to American Indian people as well. Your birth name is changes after you show by your deeds who you are. That could apply to women too. (It's almost like starting out with serial numbers and only getting a real name when your personality emerges.)
 
Loxuru said:
'Hermann' itself meaning 'army man', or warrior, or war hero. Was this originally a give name to a newborn boy child, or a name earned during army service?
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And that may not have been his name. All the ancient sources - which, of course, are Roman - refer to him as Arminius or, sometimes, Armenius. The use of the name Hermann didn't begin until around the XVII century when he started to become an icon of German nationalism. I found an interesting paper on the subject:
I also didn't know that he had a younger brother, Flavus - obviously a Roman name - who remained loyal to Rome.
 
Naraku said:
uvm.edu/sites/default/files/S13_Thesis_Torres.pdf
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Work supervised by a Professor Barbara at the University of the Virgin Martyrs!!

There must be a story somewhere describing the Professor's field-work of that little upset in the Teutoburg Forest. Maybe a re-enactment group gets a little carried away..............................................
 
old slave said:
Work supervised by a Professor Barbara at the University of the Virgin Martyrs!!

There must be a story somewhere describing the Professor's field-work of that little upset in the Teutoburg Forest. Maybe a re-enactment group gets a little carried away..............................................
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Yes, the pre-eminence of the Professor`s field work is legendary together with her exploits on the whipping post.
 
Loxuru said:
'Hermann' itself meaning 'army man', or warrior, or war hero.
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Naraku said:
And that may not have been his name. All the ancient sources - which, of course, are Roman - refer to him as Arminius or, sometimes, Armenius. The use of the name Hermann didn't begin until around the XVII century when he started to become an icon of German nationalism.
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Linguistics is always tricky (for a definite answer probably ask Eulalia).

I'd say Arminius and Hermann are derivatives of the same original Germanic name - one a Latinization and one simply an evolution, as modern German simply isn't the same language as any one of the various Germanic dialects found 2000 years ago.

The actual name is probably something like 'Irmin' derived from irmanas, ermanas = "Great". This shows up for instance in the 'Irminsul' or 'Great Pillar' ('sul' is still around in modern German as 'säule') - a Germanic object of worship, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irminsul

'Irm...' also does still show up in extant (though old-fashioned) German names like Irmgard, Irmhild etc. and many other names containing it are documented.
Among the variants of these names are for instance documented in the Middle Ages Irmingard/Ermengard/Hermangard so the transition from Irmin to Herman seems common. Example, https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermangard_d’Asp

'Proper' Germanic names are supposed to consist of two parts, such as 'Irminfrid' but it was a common trend for short forms to become names in their own right. Interestingly, Irmin, Armin, and Hermann all continue to exist as legit German names - Armin is basically backported from the latinization.
 
malins said:
Linguistics is always tricky (for a definite answer probably ask Eulalia).

I'd say Arminius and Hermann are derivatives of the same original Germanic name - one a Latinization and one simply an evolution, as modern German simply isn't the same language as any one of the various Germanic dialects found 2000 years ago.

The actual name is probably something like 'Irmin' derived from irmanas, ermanas = "Great". This shows up for instance in the 'Irminsul' or 'Great Pillar' ('sul' is still around in modern German as 'säule') - a Germanic object of worship, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irminsul

'Irm...' also does still show up in extant (though old-fashioned) German names like Irmgard, Irmhild etc. and many other names containing it are documented.
Among the variants of these names are for instance documented in the Middle Ages Irmingard/Ermengard/Hermangard so the transition from Irmin to Herman seems common. Example, https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermangard_d’Asp

'Proper' Germanic names are supposed to consist of two parts, such as 'Irminfrid' but it was a common trend for short forms to become names in their own right. Interestingly, Irmin, Armin, and Hermann all continue to exist as legit German names - Armin is basically backported from the latinization.
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Yes, there's not much I'd argue with or add to in that. As the Oxford Classical Dictionary says 'much has been written, but little established, about his (Arminius') name'. Some scholars in the past saw Irmin- as the name of a god, even a cognate of Hermes, but it's much more likely, as you say, to mean 'huge, very great'; the same element is in Old Norse jǫrmungrundr, Old English eormengrund, 'the Earth', and Norse Jǫrmungandr, another name for the Midgard Serpent. So I think it's likely, but not certain, that Arminius was formed with that element plus a name-forming suffix, making him a 'very great' guy.
 
Some time ago, I posted an announcement on this thread about a new, heavyweight, scholarly tome
'The Brothel of Pompeii: sex, class and gender in the margins of Roman society' by Sarah Levin-Richardson.
I've not seen or read the book, but have just read a substantial review article,
it's interesting to me, not least because Luna set an episode in 'Amica: the slavegirl of Pompeii' in that place,
which is supposed to be the only 'purpose-built brothel' known from the Roman world.

The main finding of the study is that, in fact, it was far from being a typical Roman brothel,
It seems to have been more like a club, offering lower-class men, including slaves, 'something more than sex
(which was probably available to them elsewhere)', rather 'a Roman masculinity experience',
experiencing for a few stolen hours the wealthy Roman male's sense of power and luxury.
There certainly was sex, of many kinky kinds, to judge by the graffiti,
though the wall-paintings portrayed only 'normal' vanilla intercourse.
But the men enjoyed more than just the sex, it was a pseudo-aristocratic environment
where they'd be served with food and drink, bathed, massaged, shaved and generally pampered..
And it was a place where news and gossip could be picked up and exchanged,
in chats among the men and with the girls, and on notes on the doors, jokes, partisan banter, news of deaths, etc. etc.
It was commercially ambitious, probably operating on narrow profit margins if any,
charging far from wealthy men what little they could afford for a short time playing
at living the kind of lives enjoyed by the really rich Romans they spent their days serving.
The upper storey was a different matter - a separate establishment accessed by a different entrance,
and a balcony walkway, just a row of bare, plainly painted rooms,
these were places just for quick sex with the girls for a few coins, a more typical Roman brothel.
 
Eulalia said:
It was commercially ambitious, probably operating on narrow profit margins if any,
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Might the ambition have been more political than commercial? The Romans were intensely social and clubbable, I note you describe the brothel as a club. Even today private members clubs around the world can wield outside influence. A Roman club aimed at the working class might gain a wealth of eyes and ears on the street, hard hands ready to be turned to any task be it honest labour or otherwise and of course voices ready to sing the praises or curses of any candidate in an election. I do not know if there is any evidence to support or deny that but such influence peddling would chime well with what we know about Roman society.
 
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Very likely, at least such a place would have been a hotbed - and not just a hot sex bed!
Roman civic politics, and chariot racing teams, aroused just the same passions and partisan fury
as anything we see on social media today, places where working men (and the girls) got together
would surely have been exploited with the determination and ingenuity of - er, well, those who are alleged
to interfere in elections via spreading false news and propaganda today!
 
Quick Question. Who are the two Romans that the average person in the US and EU (and UK) can name off the bat. No, Cleo doesn't count; she was Egyptian (or really Greek).

I have four in mind, but I believe two stand out.
 
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