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Roman Resources
- Thread starter RacingRodent
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malins
Stumbling Seeker
Progress has been quite amazing here.
For reference, what one of these scrolls looks like,
it's a tightly packed, compressed charred mess and attempting to unroll it mechanically however carefully ...
... leaves behind crumbling flakes and not much more.
But somewhere inside there are remains of text.
And there are hundreds of these, and perhaps thousands more still buried.
Since autumn, the 'Vesuvius challenge' have gone from this ... a single word deciphered out of a rolled up crushed carbonized scroll
to entire paragraphs that while not perfectly sharp, are decipherable
This makes it plausible that in fact the library of scrolls will be accessible.
There's a compact write-up from the project here https://scrollprize.org/grandprize
and a more journalistic treatment https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2024-ai-unlock-ancient-world-secrets/
This I'd say is one area where machine learning aka AI can deliver spectacular results, and an important thing to consider is, there's no language model involved.
That's important because there is the obvious caveat, if humans can't really see the writing, and can't look inside the scroll, how do we know the AI isn't just making something up that seems plausible?
The algorithms, of which there are competing ones that are all open sourced, are basically looking for the presence or not of ink traces, or at best individual characters, but don't know anything about Greek vocabulary, grammar, the topics of Epicurean philosophy etc.
The entire approach is much more related to medical imagery analysis than ChatGPT et al. and that approach is how the entire Herculaneum scroll decoding effort started (CT scans, segmentation, this is all familiar from medical 3D work as it has existed for decades). And to answer the chicken-egg question ... yes there are some flakes of scrolls where the human eye could recognize letters, or patterns of ink residue, and that's what enabled the first training iterations.
And anyways the results the machine-learning nerds come up with get piped right to teams of established classicists who can contextualize.
If they were trying to decipher unknown writing systems or languages things indeed would be more difficult to verify...
cire
Governor
Hi Naraku,
the heel bones are a very exciting find.
But there is still what we got from Seneca:
Seneca the Younger wrote: "I see crosses there, not just of one kind but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some impale their private parts; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet".
Josephus may also wrote about the crucifixion, but I don't think we can consider it as confirmed.
What Seneca wrote is very well possible (it arouses me, so I hope that what he wrote is a fact
).Would'nt it be boring as hell, if all the victims have been crucified in one and the same way?
I'm hoping that wasn't the case and I trust the roman creativity and their urge to entertain.
Why they buried the victim Jehohannan and the nameless person in Great Britain is hard to tell. Wasn't it part of the execution that the victims stayed on the crosses until the bones fell down?
Maybe these two victims have been subjects of executions on a more private basis, thus got nailed by semi-professionals?
On the other hand, coincidence twice is unlikely.
New discoveries of artwork are being reported by archaeologists working in Pompeii -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68777741
Mural in the 'Black Room' depicting Apollo and Cassandra -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68777741
Mural in the 'Black Room' depicting Apollo and Cassandra -
The other picture, at the top of the BBC report, is of Paris luring away Helen - the report says 'kidnaps', but it's a very polite kidnapping, he's just beckoning to her, she's demurely stepping forward ...
Slightly interesting is the fact that someone wrote their names on the picture, perhaps some banqueteers had enquired what it was about. They're in neat Greek capitals, corresponding to ELENE and - not Paris, but ALEXANDROS. That was actually the name of Helen's lover in the Iliad, and in plays of Sophocles and Euripides. So evidently these high-living Pompeians were very much into the Greek language and culture, a reminder that the cities of southern Italy, and Sicily, were Greek colonies, and remained very Greek throughout the time of the Roman Empire and well beyond.
Naraku
Draconarius
Any educated Roman of the first century would have known Greek and would have been required to read the Iliad and Odyssey as part of their education. It is for that reason that copies continued to be made and the stories are available to us today while other works have been lost.
Rias
Neko Girl
Document BBC production I watched last time on Polsat Viasat History channel, it's avalible in internet but BBC player working only from UK territory...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001v60k/the-cambridgeshire-crucifixion
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-67943596
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001v60k/the-cambridgeshire-crucifixion
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-67943596
Frank Petrexa
Tribune
Well, Bikini is named after an island. So how about a "Lesbos", in a nod to Sappho. (You are probably right. The enterprising Polynesians got to a remarkable number of places--much better navigators than the cautious ancients in Europe who hugged the shore and may have even found South America, but I doubt they made it to the Mediterranean. Too bad they didn't write stuff down.)
I really shouldn't be doing this, considering that you're the Latin scholar, but I'm addicted to finding things out by going down rabbit holes and digging in the internet, so here is what I have found out. You will, of course, forgive me for treading into your sandbox.
Loincloths, known as subligacula or subligaria were apparently worn under a tunic. It is not clear from my cursory research if these are the "bikinis" worn in the mosaic, but it is suggested that they could be worn on their own. Slaves would wear them for hot, sweaty or dirty work. Women wore both subligaria and a strophium (a breast cloth) under their tunics (which were normally long-sleeved and went down to the ankles or feet). Women's subligaria and strophia were sometimes tailored for work or leisure, so these might be the "bikinis". Apparently, a leather bikini like garment from Roman times was discovered in Britain where it had been preserved in a well.
captivecuties
Senator
Leather bikinis…how kinky!I really shouldn't be doing this, considering that you're the Latin scholar, but I'm addicted to finding things out by going down rabbit holes and digging in the internet, so here is what I have found out. You will, of course, forgive me for treading into your sandbox.
Loincloths, known as subligacula or subligaria were apparently worn under a tunic. It is not clear from my cursory research if these are the "bikinis" worn in the mosaic, but it is suggested that they could be worn on their own. Slaves would wear them for hot, sweaty or dirty work. Women wore both subligaria and a strophium (a breast cloth) under their tunics (which were normally long-sleeved and went down to the ankles or feet). Women's subligaria and strophia were sometimes tailored for work or leisure, so these might be the "bikinis". Apparently, a leather bikini like garment from Roman times was discovered in Britain where it had been preserved in a well.
Indeed, now you come to mention it, a well-preserved leather bikini bottom was found in a Roman well in the City, and bits and pieces of others have turned up in similar anaerobic conditions - discarded by Roman girls after aerobics?I really shouldn't be doing this, considering that you're the Latin scholar, but I'm addicted to finding things out by going down rabbit holes and digging in the internet, so here is what I have found out. You will, of course, forgive me for treading into your sandbox.
Loincloths, known as subligacula or subligaria were apparently worn under a tunic. It is not clear from my cursory research if these are the "bikinis" worn in the mosaic, but it is suggested that they could be worn on their own. Slaves would wear them for hot, sweaty or dirty work. Women wore both subligaria and a strophium (a breast cloth) under their tunics (which were normally long-sleeved and went down to the ankles or feet). Women's subligaria and strophia were sometimes tailored for work or leisure, so these might be the "bikinis". Apparently, a leather bikini like garment from Roman times was discovered in Britain where it had been preserved in a well.
https://www.londonmuseum.org.uk/collections/v/object-12580/bikini/
And, yes, various words for nether garments - some, like lumbaria, femoralia refer to the anatomy they went over (lumbus loins, femora thighs), but (sub)ligacula, -ligaria are a bit more sexy, ligula is 'a little tongue', ligurio 'I lick', even 'I lust for', though in connection with clothes ligula was 'a small strap, a shoelace, etc.', so 'a thong' would be close.
But it's harder to trace any term for a breast-wrapper. French brassiere is associated with 'brace', and bras 'arm' - that's from Latin, ultimately Greek, bracchium. So possibly sub-bracchi-ligula? Or, more simply, bracchiaria, which would be the theoretical ancestor of brassiere?
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Naraku
Draconarius
Brassiere is a Victorian Era euphemism, first used in advertisements in 1893.Indeed, now you come to mention it, a well-preserved leather bikini bottom was found in a Roman well in the City, and bits and pieces of others have turned up in similar anaerobic conditions - discarded by Roman girls after aerobics?
https://www.londonmuseum.org.uk/collections/v/object-12580/bikini/
And, yes, various words for nether garments - some, like lumbaria, femoralia refer to the anatomy they went over (lumbus loins, femora thighs), but (sub)ligacula, -ligaria are a bit more sexy, ligula is 'a little tongue', ligurio 'I lick', even 'I lust for', though in connection with clothes ligula was 'a small strap, a shoelace, etc.', so 'a thong' would be close.
But it's harder to trace any term for a breast-wrapper. French brassiere is associated with 'brace', and bras 'arm' - that's from Latin, ultimately Greek, bracchium. So possibly sub-bracchi-ligula? Or, more simply, bracchiaria, which would be the theoretical ancestor of brassiere?
Breast bands or wraps have been common in other cultures, being traditionally worn under both the India sari and the Japanese kimono.
In ancient Greece, breast wraps were called apodesmos, stēthodesmē, mastodesmos, and mastodeton. I don't know if these names apply to different styles or are different names for the same thing. I can't find a Roman equivalent, but, according to Google Translate, "breasts wrapper" is pectora fascia, in Latin. I can't get a translation for "sports bra".
Oh yes, fascia is a good word, used for a wrap-around band of cloth, a girdle etc. But it should be pectorea, adjectival 'breast-wrapper', or genitive plural pectorum 'of the breasts'. GT still struggles with Latin declensions.
Eva Inanna
Governor
Naraku
Draconarius
Google Translate failed Introductory Latin.
Frank Petrexa
Tribune
Maybe people other than I will find this interesting.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/07/...e_code=1.YE4.WK3u.xmBxkrjEI3cj&smid=url-share
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/07/...e_code=1.YE4.WK3u.xmBxkrjEI3cj&smid=url-share
RacingRodent
Consul
Yeah it is fascinating stuff, it is going to change and challenge a lot of what we thought we knew about the dynamics in Pompeii.
- An adult with a golden bracelet and a child on their lap, often interpreted as mother and son or daughter, turned out to be a genetic male and a biologically unrelated child.
- Three of four presumed family members at one site had no genetic ties to one another, at least up to the third degree. (The team wasn’t able to analyze DNA from the remains of the fourth person.)
- Two individuals lying in a position frequently seen as an embrace — previously hypothesized to be sisters, mother and daughter, or lovers — include at least one genetic male, excluding two of the three common interpretations.
willowfall
Senator
Well let's look at this in a common sense perspective instead of a scientist guessing based on their own biases.
In any disaster people who are not related are thrown together in terror and in trying to escape and inevitably become trapped together and die together. Take the World Trade Center Towers for example. How many sets of unrelated DNA were lost together in that disaster? Now we don't have to interpret what happened because there were numerous survivors, rescue personnel, etc etc but suppose there had been a major nuclear war and civilization collapsed and all records went with it. How would explorers\scientists interpret the preserved bodies they found well over a millennia after the actual event. Especially if they had no cultural connection to the destroyed civilization.
Just to take item #1 listed above a man finds himself trapped with a scared child he didn't know. He knows they are about to die and there is nothing he can do about it. Why wouldn't he take the child onto his lap and try to provide some comfort in their final moments on Earth?
There was no reason for scientist to exclude that possibility yet it was because of their biases.
That's why we always have to be very careful when dealing with history or science to understand the difference between indisputable facts, interpretations (guesses) and theories.
kisses
willowfall