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If you even think about crucifying Barb ...you will face me!!!
You mean...this one!!!View attachment 186189 ... and her terrible swift sword !!
I'm beginning to think we need a special league for omniscient Sibyls!
The way I'd put it is, in Melissa's story, Tree's right about knowing on Thursday afternoon that it must be Friday
but (in the story) Velut Luna's wrong (perish the thought!
), on Wed the chances are evens between Th and Fri,and on Tu it's 2-1 against Wed, on Mon it's 3-1 against Tu,
and you might set the test on Monday morning, but the odds against are 4-1.
T
The Fallen Angel
Guest
That is a new approach. But....if you pull out a white on Thursday does that mean the test will go ahead on Friday? If it does then will it be a surprise?
T
The Fallen Angel
Guest
Probability has certainly been tried before in an attempt to solve the problem. The students are certain that by logic alone the test cannot take place. They had me convinced...but they were wrong. So exactly where did their reasoning break down?...if it did?I'm beginning to think we need a special league for omniscient Sibyls!
The way I'd put it is, in Melissa's story, Tree's right about knowing on Thursday afternoon that it must be Friday
but (in the story) Velut Luna's wrong (perish the thought!
and on Tu it's 2-1 against Wed, on Mon it's 3-1 against Tu,
and you might set the test on Monday morning, but the odds against are 4-1.
Velut Luna
Sibilla Cumana
I'm beginning to think we need a special league for omniscient Sibyls!
The way I'd put it is, in Melissa's story, Tree's right about knowing on Thursday afternoon that it must be Friday
but (in the story) Velut Luna's wrong (perish the thought!
and on Tu it's 2-1 against Wed, on Mon it's 3-1 against Tu,
and you might set the test on Monday morning, but the odds against are 4-1.
così al vento ne le foglie levi
si perdea la sentenza di Sibilla.
si perdea la sentenza di Sibilla.
Velut Luna
Sibilla Cumana
Excuse me Melissa, but if you pull out the white on Thusday (after white sorted out in the before three days) not need to be repeated the pull out on Friday, Friday is the last day for the test! in symbolic language is:
in math language the time is a vector and flow only in one direction: from now to future, but you don't know the future.
You are not a Sibilla.
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sympazero2
Cruciformae Studiosus
No allowance is made for the intuitive abilities of the young mind.
If only one of the students (likely there would me more) guesses at the moment
the test will be offered, then he or she is not surprised.
Therefore by the set rules, if one is not surprised, then none are.
Conclusion: The paradox cannot be resolved.
The only definitive surprise possible would be brought about
by not warning the students of the approaching test.
If only one of the students (likely there would me more) guesses at the moment
the test will be offered, then he or she is not surprised.
Therefore by the set rules, if one is not surprised, then none are.
Conclusion: The paradox cannot be resolved.
The only definitive surprise possible would be brought about
by not warning the students of the approaching test.
Ego Stipes Ergo Sum
T
The Fallen Angel
Guest
You are quite right in referring to the problem as a paradox. It has been around since 1948 when O'Connor introduced the "Class A Blackout" Class A practices being sprung on unsuspecting soldiers. I think the first version concerned a surprise inspection of the troops. Quine introduced the Condemned Man Paradox who was sentenced to be hanged sometime in the coming week. Shaw was the first to call it a Surprise Test. There have been many variations since and very many articles written about this paradox which involve Philosophy, and of course Mathematics, Logic, Game Theory and all manner of subjects. The problem is identifying exactly what is wrong with the student argument that a test cannot be set under the conditions I stated, namely that it will be a surprise test. It was Connie who introduced the word "surprise" and I agreed that it would be. Tree stated that the test could not (under those conditions) be held on the Friday. Assume all agreed with his statement and trusted me to keep to my condition.
What exactly is a 'surprise'? In ordinary usage, I'd say that something that happens when there's 4-1 odds against it happening is a bit of a surprise.
By the time we get to Wednesday afternoon and it's evens whether the test's on Th or Fri, it's not much of a surprise, and by Friday morning no surprise at all. But if you understand a 'surprise' to be something completely unforeseen and unforeseeable, then you can't ever surprise them, given the propensity of maths teachers for setting tests, there's always a finite possibility that you'll spring one on them
By the time we get to Wednesday afternoon and it's evens whether the test's on Th or Fri, it's not much of a surprise, and by Friday morning no surprise at all. But if you understand a 'surprise' to be something completely unforeseen and unforeseeable, then you can't ever surprise them, given the propensity of maths teachers for setting tests, there's always a finite possibility that you'll spring one on them
T
The Fallen Angel
Guest
The definition of "surprise" is certainly very important in resolving this paradox. If I decide the test will be on Thurs then the prob it will be on Thurs is 1. You are looking at the probability of the test happening from the student view point and at different times of the week. Have you forgotten that all the class agreed with Tree that the test could not be on Friday nor any other day for that matter. From their point of view the prob of a test on any day is zero provided I stick to the condition that it will be a surprise test.What exactly is a 'surprise'? In ordinary usage, I'd say that something that happens when there's 4-1 odds against it happening is a bit of a surprise.
By the time we get to Wednesday afternoon and it's evens whether the test's on Th or Fri, it's not much of a surprise, and by Friday morning no surprise at all. But if you understand a 'surprise' to be something completely unforeseen and unforeseeable, then you can't ever surprise them, given the propensity of maths teachers for setting tests, there's always a finite possibility that you'll spring one on them
T
The Fallen Angel
Guest
While people are thinking!!!!..............since Tree decided the test was impossible to set under the "surprise" conditions this is what happened during the test as related by Tree.
The Algebra Test
The general feeling was one of depression. We were all going to the gallows without knowing why! Where did my logic go wrong? Beads of cold sweat broke out on my forehead and I could feel the tension showing on my face. Not a minute spent on revision but here I was. It may as well be the electric chair for me.
Ah well, here we go. We wished each other luck, as if that would make the slightest bit of difference!. Pens, pencils, rulers, compasses, protractors, calculators, polos, cuddly toys, and anything that may help were emptied onto the desk. My desk records the fact that Daz loves Tracey and there is also an interesting account of what Michelle does in her riding boots after dark.
My reading is interrupted as we are given the order to start. We exchange furtive glances, bite our nails and crack our knuckles. I open the test paper.
"If Johnny drops a rock of X grams down a well of D metres, and hears a splash of T decibels Y seconds later , the relationship between his height in H metres and the well diameter W can be expressed in terms of X, D, T and Y. Rearrange this formula to find the distance from Penzance to Liverpool in millimetre."
Who writes this stuff? I frantically stab at my calculator. The answer?...minus zero point 2...oh dear!!!
I turn the page. I glance at Madiosi sat two seats in front as he blows his nose on a Pythagorean handkerchief.
"If it is teatime in London and breakfast time in New York calculate the probability that Punjab throws two consecutive sixes with a single dice of which two faces are yellow, two are green and two are blue. Give your answer in terms of X."
Velut Luna sat four seats to my right smiles. I smile back. She winks. I wink back. This is getting good. She giggles.
I read her lips. " What..is..number..five?"
"What..?"
"Thirty..." I pause to break into a cough as Miss strides past. "...seven!"
Velut turns away. Ah well, such is life.
Last question and just five minutes left. I see myself as being the only one in the class able to do it and get full marks for it.
"The above quadrilateral of side Q can be divided into six triangles of area
98-(fq/(ad+bm)t)
Given this information show that these triangles can be reformed into a duo decahedron of surface area
(fg + 6.543)/(ab-xdp + 2) + ((qu + th)- 6453 -t)/(69*(fgte+ rq -zu)
The dream disappears!! OK..Factorise the LHS , double it and add the number you first thought of and divide by three.
"Stop writing please." A buzz of conversation begins. "That was easy!!" says RR.
"Oh yeah?" I ask. "Did you remember to consequentially refactorise the congruent products of the lower linear equation in question 9?" His jaw drops and I sit back with hands clasped behind my head with a smile on my face. I'd forgotten to refactorise whatever it was also. I consoled myself with the thought that this was only a test and the real thing would be so much easier..I think.
The Algebra Test
The general feeling was one of depression. We were all going to the gallows without knowing why! Where did my logic go wrong? Beads of cold sweat broke out on my forehead and I could feel the tension showing on my face. Not a minute spent on revision but here I was. It may as well be the electric chair for me.
Ah well, here we go. We wished each other luck, as if that would make the slightest bit of difference!. Pens, pencils, rulers, compasses, protractors, calculators, polos, cuddly toys, and anything that may help were emptied onto the desk. My desk records the fact that Daz loves Tracey and there is also an interesting account of what Michelle does in her riding boots after dark.
My reading is interrupted as we are given the order to start. We exchange furtive glances, bite our nails and crack our knuckles. I open the test paper.
"If Johnny drops a rock of X grams down a well of D metres, and hears a splash of T decibels Y seconds later , the relationship between his height in H metres and the well diameter W can be expressed in terms of X, D, T and Y. Rearrange this formula to find the distance from Penzance to Liverpool in millimetre."
Who writes this stuff? I frantically stab at my calculator. The answer?...minus zero point 2...oh dear!!!
I turn the page. I glance at Madiosi sat two seats in front as he blows his nose on a Pythagorean handkerchief.
"If it is teatime in London and breakfast time in New York calculate the probability that Punjab throws two consecutive sixes with a single dice of which two faces are yellow, two are green and two are blue. Give your answer in terms of X."
Velut Luna sat four seats to my right smiles. I smile back. She winks. I wink back. This is getting good. She giggles.
I read her lips. " What..is..number..five?"
"What..?"
"Thirty..." I pause to break into a cough as Miss strides past. "...seven!"
Velut turns away. Ah well, such is life.
Last question and just five minutes left. I see myself as being the only one in the class able to do it and get full marks for it.
"The above quadrilateral of side Q can be divided into six triangles of area
98-(fq/(ad+bm)t)
Given this information show that these triangles can be reformed into a duo decahedron of surface area
(fg + 6.543)/(ab-xdp + 2) + ((qu + th)- 6453 -t)/(69*(fgte+ rq -zu)
The dream disappears!! OK..Factorise the LHS , double it and add the number you first thought of and divide by three.
"Stop writing please." A buzz of conversation begins. "That was easy!!" says RR.
"Oh yeah?" I ask. "Did you remember to consequentially refactorise the congruent products of the lower linear equation in question 9?" His jaw drops and I sit back with hands clasped behind my head with a smile on my face. I'd forgotten to refactorise whatever it was also. I consoled myself with the thought that this was only a test and the real thing would be so much easier..I think.
T
The Fallen Angel
Guest
After two puzzles here is the league table.
Italy 2 Gold=6 points
GB 1 Gold,1 Silver, 1 Bronze=6 points
Germany 1 Silver = 2 points
Australia 1 Bronze= 1 point
I know some people are still thinking about "The Surprise Test" paradox so in the meantime here is another TARGET,
The letters are R E T E E P R D V. Again only words of 4 or more letters count. They must contain an E and there must be a nine letter word.
TARGET
Good = 17
Very good = 25
Excellent = 33+
No proper nouns.
Italy 2 Gold=6 points
GB 1 Gold,1 Silver, 1 Bronze=6 points
Germany 1 Silver = 2 points
Australia 1 Bronze= 1 point
I know some people are still thinking about "The Surprise Test" paradox so in the meantime here is another TARGET,
The letters are R E T E E P R D V. Again only words of 4 or more letters count. They must contain an E and there must be a nine letter word.
TARGET
Good = 17
Very good = 25
Excellent = 33+
No proper nouns.
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T
The Fallen Angel
Guest
Friday 12.00 amDo we have a deadline?
T
The Fallen Angel
Guest
Wragg has taken a very quick lead in the TARGET with a total of 25!