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Tortured Women

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Eulalia said:
... Catholics concluded that masturbation was a far greater sin than rape...
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Almost greater than murder !!
Everything was (and still is) prohibited apart from vaginal intercourse between two married persons (without any protection, otherwise it's a sin)
It's the only thing I reminded of religion in general.
And, of course, we could talk about Islam ! (women clothes, adultery, etc)

Mormons (continuation). I guess this religion is not entirely bad !
lol

 
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Eulalia said:
The Cathars had interesting ideas...
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This religion, which was never the religion of the majority (it would be a very long history !), was a pretext for an annexion war approved by the Pope (a "crusade").
 
Eulalia said:
The Cathars had interesting ideas:
Basic Cathar Tenets led to some surprising logical implications. For example they largely regarded men and women as equals, and had no doctrinal objection to contraception, euthanasia or suicide. In some respects the Cathar and Catholic Churches were polar opposites. For example the Cathar Church taught that all non-procreative sex was better than any procreative sex. The Catholic Church taught - as it still teaches - exactly the opposite. Both positions produced interesting results. Following their tenet, Catholics concluded that masturbation was a far greater sin than rape (as mediaeval penitentials confirm). Following their principles, Cathars could deduce that sexual intercourse between man and wife was more culpable than homosexual sex. (Catholic propaganda on this supposed Cathar proclivity gave us the word bugger, from Bougre, one of the many names for medieval Gnostic Dualists)
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Yes but the reason was : they believed material world was bad, an illusion created by the Devil (for this reason, procreation was bad)

On the contrary, for Catholics (and more or less Christians en general), material world is good, with some conclusions as : euthanasy, contraception, abortion, euthanasy are bad (sins against Life)

That's right they considered men and women were equal. Cf discussion between a Dominican and the cathar "Perfect" Esclamonde de Foix/Esclarmonda de Fois (a princess)

"Allez filer votre quenouille, Madame !" (I let you translate)
 
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Pierre771 said:
for Catholics (and more or less Christians en general), material world is good
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But corrupted by original sin. So (following Augustine's interpretation of Psalm 50.7 (Vulg) Ecce enim in iniquitate conceptus sum: et in peccato concepit me mater mea; 51.5 (BCP) Behold I was shapen in wickedness: and in sin did my mother conceive me), our very conception entails a sinful act on the part of our parents.
 
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Pierre771 said:
"Allez filer votre quenouille, Madame !"
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That is a tough one! "Go spin your distaff" - could be a figure of speech rather than literal, and probably is. I have a pretty good literary vocabulary in French, but I had to look up quenouille in Le Petit Larousse. A distaff was something women would carry with them and commonly work with, spinning thread whenever they were otherwise idle, so it would have been common to see a woman sitting and doing that while waiting on something.
 
The phrase is well documented in historical French dictionaries to be found on-line,
the earliest seems to be:

Dict. de l'Acad. Fr. 1st ed 1694
On dit prov. à une femme qui se veut mesler de choses qui passent sa capacité, Allez filer vostre quenouille.

modernised in the 4th ed 1762
On dit proverbialement à une femme qui se veut mêler de choses qui passent sa capacité, Allez filer votre quenouille.

It's said to a woman who wants to meddle in affairs that are beyond her capacities :mad:

Mind you, I suspect there may be a double entendre ;)
 
jedakk said:
That is a tough one! "Go spin your distaff" - could be a figure of speech rather than literal, and probably is. I have a pretty good literary vocabulary in French, but I had to look up quenouille in Le Petit Larousse. A distaff was something women would carry with them and commonly work with, spinning thread whenever they were otherwise idle, so it would have been common to see a woman sitting and doing that while waiting on something.
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"Quenouille" is not especially literary, it's rather archaïc.
In English, 'distaff'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distaff
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quenouille

This professional catholic preacher said to the brilliant, intelligent and cultivated young princess who had become a cathar "parfaite" and wanted to discuss philosophy and religion with him to go back to more normal works for a woman !
 
Eulalia said:
The phrase is well documented in historical French dictionaries to be found on-line,
the earliest seems to be:

Dict. de l'Acad. Fr. 1st ed 1694
On dit prov. à une femme qui se veut mesler de choses qui passent sa capacité, Allez filer vostre quenouille.

modernised in the 4th ed 1762
On dit proverbialement à une femme qui se veut mêler de choses qui passent sa capacité, Allez filer votre quenouille.

It's said to a woman who wants to meddle in affairs that are beyond her capacities :mad:

Mind you, I suspect there may be a double entendre ;)
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Yes
It's a discussion for men ! Go back to normal occupation for a woman, her house. Go back home ! (Here : with anger)
The scene takes place at the beginning of the 13th century
 
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