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When to strip??

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PhilX said:
It's good to see this old thread of mine reopened. Also enjoyable to read the exciting narrative being created between you all!

All we can do is speculate about what a crucifixion would be like, the actual crucifixion would be pretty horrible & disgusting to watch. To witness people being tortured & humiliated like that would be very alien to our sensibilities now. Yet would it?

It is amazing how rational thinking people can be transformed by mob-influence; an element of anger can be whipped up fast into a riot as was seen in Britain last month. Hatred against those convicted of serious crimes could create a very hostile crowd, keen to see the maximum pain & bloodshed inflicted on those being executed. The lead-up to the actual crucifixion would do a lot in drumming-up the crowd hostility.

Seeing others in extreme pain & trauma can cause two very different reactions, one it would evoke compassion & the will to help, yet it can also cause the exact opposite & make the onlooker feel contempt & loathing for the sufferer. What the general mood of the majority around one might be has a big bearing on this.

People don't like criminals, unless one is a friend or relative of a convicted malefactor the general feeling is that they should get what they deserve. So seeing a poor wretch bearing a patibulum on the way through the streets to be crucified outside the city walls would be a thing of interest & most likely disgust.

We have now a choice. Judging by the physical appearance & sex of the victims, do we follow the procession out through the gate to the stinking execution ground to witness the next stage of their torture, or do we hurl some horrible insult at them & then leave to get on with the day's work? If the prisoners are attractive, or strong, or even better female, the temptation to watch what happens next is more than tempting. We all know that once they get to the execution place the victims will be stripped completely naked before they are nailed to the cross. That is something to savour! The anticipation of the women's legs pulled wide apart or the ridiculous sight of a man's penis swinging around as he writhes up there in agony is something to look forward to, even better if the man gets an erection, watching the women in the crowd reacting with shrieks of mock horror to that is very amusing. The sight of the naked women victims makes all the men in the crowd conscious of their tunics becoming out of shape at the front! Yes watching a crucifixion can be enormous fun, & usually makes me lust for my wife once I'm back home!
Click to expand...

I've always personally wondered, as you suggest, what the reaction of people would be in any place that does not have public executions if someone who was really hated was led out to be crucified in this manner. There would be plenty of onlookers but does not the mob continue through the whole thing (as much as possible) or would most people become disgusted as some point and leave?
 
Calm quiet guys.
Comes the story. Eulalia must be condemned. is right, it is our duty.
But ... Perhaps we should open another page.
It should also seek the advice of Eulalia about it.
The dedication:
The Crucifixion of Christa - Eulalia
 
Sorry to have broken into your story Emiliano it was interesting, but we all have a right to chip in with our own comments, & your story was, with respect, rather off subject!
 
I KNOW I KNOW CALM.
We have made ourselves get carried away by enthusiasm. But now we will make a new page with the story from the beginning.
We also need your help!
For example, I need suggestions on the scourging
 
PhilX said:
Sorry to have broken into your story Emiliano it was interesting, but we all have a right to chip in with our own comments, & your story was, with respect, rather off subject!
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Yes, Masters, I bow humbly.​
It did start with Emiliano offering answers to your question, but we got carried away -​
being crucified's like that!​
Like Emiliano says, we've got some ideas for a new thread - a 'prequel' - watch this space!​
 
Enthusiasm is wonderful! Keep it going!

I'd be very happy to help with ideas on scourging, it is something that I reckon the 'experts' on TV have got it a bit wrong. I'm thinking of the clip, I think on the Discovery programme, where they try out one of those vicious hooked scourges on what looks like a quilt, it rips the stuffing out pretty fast. A few blows with that on a victim's back would tear the flesh off to the ribs pretty soon. My problem with that is that it would be all too easy to cause too much damage to the victim, it would only need the scourge to wrap round to the victim's abdomen & the muscle wall would be ripped open immediately, the guts would spill out & the injury would be very serious, no way could the victim carry a patibulum after such wounding. I am sure such scourges were used by the Romans, but only when a victim was sentenced to be scourged to death.
If victims were indeed scourged before crucifixion (& I have my doubts about this) then surely the aim would be to damage the skin with lacerations that would cause extra pain when the victim's back & buttocks would rub up & down the stipes, more of a sadistic addition to the procedure than serious wounding. So I doubt the scourge would have those hooked barbs designed to rip flesh & muscle away.

If the Gospels are our only account of a crucifixion it is interesting that Luke (the closest gospel to the time?) makes no mention of a scourging at all. The other three imply that the scourging ordered by Pilate was intended to be the actual punishment, he hoped Jesus would be released afterwards. So it wasn't an integral part of crucifixion it would seem. This would mean that victims for crucifixion wouldn't be half dead when raised up on the cross, they would survive for a long time & struggle pretty vigorously most of that time, much more entertaining for a watching crowd!
 
In rethinking the entire idea of stripping, my thoughts would be that once taken from the cell the prisoner should just wear a loin cloth and once hung up on the cross it should be removed. its a very open ended question and I guess it up to individual taste it seems..............
 
ok ok kids. We all have one goal: to enjoy ourselves as much as possible in the condemnation of the victim.
Offer then a whipping in which our victim suffer, but also manages to bring the patibulum.
It must be a whipping in which there are:
- Humiliation (and this will be stripped in public)
- Pain in the face screaming, but that does not prevent bringing the patibulum.

Keep in mind that, in history, it is said that the authorities decide immediately crucify! So will be the scourging takes CORRECTLY!

Then you know what? I suddenly there is a doubt. I do not know if:
1) it stripped in public
2) take her already naked in public with a rag tied around the waist of the Sentence
3) ordered her to get undressed in front ALL! (MAY BE AN IDEA)
 
Well I have read somewhere that females were crucified facing the stipes, but there is so much one reads that has to be taken with a big pinch of salt! As I said earlier we are all guessing here, so we might as well let our fantasies go as far as possible. Truth is that I reckon there were many ways of crucifying victims, maybe that depended on local preferences or traditions or just down to the whim of the current state governor.

As to females facing the cross, I wrote some months ago that the cross itself resembled an aroused male with the sedile jutting out half way down the stipes. Also that I sort of went along with Ed's theory of the sedile or cornu being designed to penetrate the victim's anus or vagina, so the way a man was crucified facing away from the cross was a parody of the homosexual sexual act, likewise the female facing it resembled rape by a man. So crucifixion was a cruel imitation of coitus or sodomy. Some contemporary writer said that victims on the cross resembled those in the throws of sexual passion. Possibly this was another reason why they were stripped naked.
 
Going back to scourging, I saw in some small church in Rome some while back what was supposed to be the actual column Christ was scourged at. I was amazed how short it was, only knee high. Doubtless it wasn't the actual thing, but if victims were scourged by being shackled to such low knee-high columns they would have had to bend right over. This would make them very vulnerable to all manner of sexual abuse as well as the scourging itself. Also a man's balls would be pretty unprotected in that position. Nasty!
 
Eulalia said:
Yes, Masters, I bow humbly.​
It did start with Emiliano offering answers to your question, but we got carried away -​
being crucified's like that!​
Like Emiliano says, we've got some ideas for a new thread - a 'prequel' - watch this space!​
Click to expand...

I look forward to seeing these ideas when they come!

PhilX said:
Going back to scourging, I saw in some small church in Rome some while back what was supposed to be the actual column Christ was scourged at. I was amazed how short it was, only knee high. Doubtless it wasn't the actual thing, but if victims were scourged by being shackled to such low knee-high columns they would have had to bend right over. This would make them very vulnerable to all manner of sexual abuse as well as the scourging itself. Also a man's balls would be pretty unprotected in that position. Nasty!
Click to expand...

Very interesting, thanks for sharing your observations!
 
Emiliano Maraldi said:
ok ok kids. We all have one goal: to enjoy ourselves as much as possible in the condemnation of the victim.
Offer then a whipping in which our victim suffer, but also manages to bring the patibulum.
It must be a whipping in which there are:
- Humiliation (and this will be stripped in public)
- Pain in the face screaming, but that does not prevent bringing the patibulum.

Keep in mind that, in history, it is said that the authorities decide immediately crucify! So will be the scourging takes CORRECTLY!

Then you know what? I suddenly there is a doubt. I do not know if:
1) it stripped in public
2) take her already naked in public with a rag tied around the waist of the Sentence
3) ordered her to get undressed in front ALL! (MAY BE AN IDEA)
Click to expand...

If I may offer a suggestion, one could always have a public "trial" and then strip the victim after and then take her to be scourged. Just a thought.
 
PhilX said:
Enthusiasm is wonderful! Keep it going!

I'd be very happy to help with ideas on scourging, it is something that I reckon the 'experts' on TV have got it a bit wrong. I'm thinking of the clip, I think on the Discovery programme, where they try out one of those vicious hooked scourges on what looks like a quilt, it rips the stuffing out pretty fast. A few blows with that on a victim's back would tear the flesh off to the ribs pretty soon. My problem with that is that it would be all too easy to cause too much damage to the victim, it would only need the scourge to wrap round to the victim's abdomen & the muscle wall would be ripped open immediately, the guts would spill out & the injury would be very serious, no way could the victim carry a patibulum after such wounding. I am sure such scourges were used by the Romans, but only when a victim was sentenced to be scourged to death.
If victims were indeed scourged before crucifixion (& I have my doubts about this) then surely the aim would be to damage the skin with lacerations that would cause extra pain when the victim's back & buttocks would rub up & down the stipes, more of a sadistic addition to the procedure than serious wounding. So I doubt the scourge would have those hooked barbs designed to rip flesh & muscle away.

If the Gospels are our only account of a crucifixion it is interesting that Luke (the closest gospel to the time?) makes no mention of a scourging at all. The other three imply that the scourging ordered by Pilate was intended to be the actual punishment, he hoped Jesus would be released afterwards. So it wasn't an integral part of crucifixion it would seem. This would mean that victims for crucifixion wouldn't be half dead when raised up on the cross, they would survive for a long time & struggle pretty vigorously most of that time, much more entertaining for a watching crowd!
Click to expand...

There seem to be three possibilities -
1 a simple Scourge with whipthongs, which would quickly plough my skin with long furrows,
2 one with some form of weight (at least a knot) at or near the tip of each thong, which would increase the momentum and inflict bruises like a scatter of lead-shot hitting my skin,
3 one on which the attachments to the thongs are spiked or sharp-edged, which would rip deep gashes in my skin like a knife-wielding maniac.

1 might be used for routine chastisement, 3 would undoubtedly be an instrument of very severe punishment, quite possibly fatal, but might 2 be used before Crucifixion?
 
Eulalia said:
There seem to be three possibilities -
1 a simple Scourge with whipthongs, which would quickly plough my skin with long furrows,
2 one with some form of weight (at least a knot) at or near the tip of each thong, which would increase the momentum and inflict bruises like a scatter of lead-shot hitting my skin,
3 one on which the attachments to the thongs are spiked or sharp-edged, which would rip deep gashes in my skin like a knife-wielding maniac.

1 might be used for routine chastisement, 3 would undoubtedly be an instrument of very severe punishment, quite possibly fatal, but might 2 be used before Crucifixion?
Click to expand...
Talking of real world / sane people now:
Type 2 is very extreme already and easily cuts the skin. It can be used by an experienced person, but you need to know what you are doing!
But that's true for every kind of whipping, just think of kidneys that must not be hit by severe blows, etc.
Type 1, say a good flogger made from heavy leather like elk, is good enough to bring everybody to his/her limits (if that even is the goal), believe me!
 
Fantasmo said:
Talking of real world / sane people now:
Type 2 is very extreme already and easily cuts the skin. It can be used by an experienced person, but you need to know what you are doing!
But that's true for every kind of whipping, just think of kidneys that must not be hit by severe blows, etc.
Type 1, say a good flogger made from heavy leather like elk, is good enough to bring everybody to his/her limits (if that even is the goal), believe me!
Click to expand...
Oh yes, Fantasmo -
not suggesting anyone tries it at home!
I was thinking of the 'real' world in Roman and other historical times -
the cat o'nine tails was still in use in the British Navy not much more than a century ago,
and that was certainly a 'type 2'.
 
Eulalia said:
Oh yes, Fantasmo -
not suggesting anyone tries it at home!
I was thinking of the 'real' world in Roman and other historical times -
the cat o'nine tails was still in use in the British Navy not much more than a century ago,
and that was certainly a 'type 2'.
Click to expand...
... there are always people who would try... if it's not mentioned!

The "cat" sure is a "type 2". I personally don't like it because it is drawing blood way too easily. I like to be able to put some energy in the blow without immediately causing substancial damage.
My prefered whip is a heavy flogger. Made from 3mm elk leather.
It's capable to "cut", but one needs to deliberately force it.
 
My own preference for punishment is the leather strap as it has a very nasty bite, can be extremely brutal and can if used well draw blood.
 
d wrytter said:
My own preference for punishment is the leather strap as it has a very nasty bite, can be extremely brutal and can if used well draw blood.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's true, but it's "large surface warming capability" is not as evolved as the one of the flogger ;)
 
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