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Worried about ethics? Don't derail the thread, post here instead!
- Thread starter Wragg
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twonines
LIMERICUS
Are you sure its not Sir Cumcision?
twonines
LIMERICUS
You think correctly.Take that as a compliment ... I think
fallenmystic
Tribune
I think I have pretty clear criteria as to what is right and what is not regarding my darkest sexual fantasies. And there are two separate ones which I apply to ethics and preferences respectively.
As to ethics, the only rule I have regarding the matter is not mixing fantasies and reality under any circumstances. I know there are people who take their D/s relationships or such fantasies seriously, which is great. But even if you can immerse yourself in such a lifestyle 24/7, it's still a fantasy.
As I see the line between those two worlds so strictly separable, I don't have to be hindered by my real life morality or political stance from enjoying the most debased, and extreme kind of sexual fantasies (that is in my head, unfortunately, as I can't really seek actual D/s relationship).
In real life I support feminism (which has a certain social stigma where I live, not much less severe than one you'd get if you say "I support ISIS" in a western country). And recently, I spent half of a day trying to persuade other people why they shouldn't use discriminating words against people of different ethnicity in a local online community. In my country, blatant racism is rampant among most online communities, unfortunately, so I got tons of insults from majority of them by doing so.
But if I cross the boundary to enter my fantasy world, I love to degrade my characters in my story (not plural, since there's just one so far) by calling them 'cunt' or 'Chinks' and put them through such humiliating torments which I would never even dream of in real life. Personally, I even believe that such fantasies involving children shouldn't be condemned as such, although I incidentally don't have such fetishes, so I don't indulge myself in materials with such a theme.
The reason is that, even if I was somehow give a supernatural power to do whatever I want with people without any repercussion - like taking random girls as my slaves and rape them without getting caught or even noticed by anyone, I still wouldn't do such acts because I don't want to hurt real people either physically or psychologically for my pleasure.
So, I believe as long as you can keep your darkest desires and perversions behind that line all the time (even when nobody is watching), you shouldn't get blamed for the implication of your fantasies in real world, whatever they are.
As to the criteria I apply to my personal preferences in such fantasies, however. I just imagine I have a state-of-art virtual reality device that allows me practically 'living' a life of any character in whatever setting I can program.
If I had such a device, I'd definitely build something like the underground mine of Tibool's drawings where unwashed, naked slave girls are put to most extreme sorts of abuse and forced labour. And I'd love to 'play' one of those slave girls to experience the world from their perspective, enjoying the feeling of humiliation and degradation until I get tired of it.
However, I wouldn't put myself upon a burning stake or allow my limbs to be mutilated upon a cross, because I wouldn't enjoy it at all from an receiving end, even in such a virtual world. So, while I'm feeling perfectly fine with people who indulge in such fantasies (probably from the other end, because I can hardly imagine how any person can actually 'enjoy' the feeling of their skin melting down in flames), I try to stay away from such themes.
That is how I see the matter of ethics and preferences regarding BDSM fantasies myself.
As to ethics, the only rule I have regarding the matter is not mixing fantasies and reality under any circumstances. I know there are people who take their D/s relationships or such fantasies seriously, which is great. But even if you can immerse yourself in such a lifestyle 24/7, it's still a fantasy.
As I see the line between those two worlds so strictly separable, I don't have to be hindered by my real life morality or political stance from enjoying the most debased, and extreme kind of sexual fantasies (that is in my head, unfortunately, as I can't really seek actual D/s relationship).
In real life I support feminism (which has a certain social stigma where I live, not much less severe than one you'd get if you say "I support ISIS" in a western country). And recently, I spent half of a day trying to persuade other people why they shouldn't use discriminating words against people of different ethnicity in a local online community. In my country, blatant racism is rampant among most online communities, unfortunately, so I got tons of insults from majority of them by doing so.
But if I cross the boundary to enter my fantasy world, I love to degrade my characters in my story (not plural, since there's just one so far) by calling them 'cunt' or 'Chinks' and put them through such humiliating torments which I would never even dream of in real life. Personally, I even believe that such fantasies involving children shouldn't be condemned as such, although I incidentally don't have such fetishes, so I don't indulge myself in materials with such a theme.
The reason is that, even if I was somehow give a supernatural power to do whatever I want with people without any repercussion - like taking random girls as my slaves and rape them without getting caught or even noticed by anyone, I still wouldn't do such acts because I don't want to hurt real people either physically or psychologically for my pleasure.
So, I believe as long as you can keep your darkest desires and perversions behind that line all the time (even when nobody is watching), you shouldn't get blamed for the implication of your fantasies in real world, whatever they are.
As to the criteria I apply to my personal preferences in such fantasies, however. I just imagine I have a state-of-art virtual reality device that allows me practically 'living' a life of any character in whatever setting I can program.
If I had such a device, I'd definitely build something like the underground mine of Tibool's drawings where unwashed, naked slave girls are put to most extreme sorts of abuse and forced labour. And I'd love to 'play' one of those slave girls to experience the world from their perspective, enjoying the feeling of humiliation and degradation until I get tired of it.
However, I wouldn't put myself upon a burning stake or allow my limbs to be mutilated upon a cross, because I wouldn't enjoy it at all from an receiving end, even in such a virtual world. So, while I'm feeling perfectly fine with people who indulge in such fantasies (probably from the other end, because I can hardly imagine how any person can actually 'enjoy' the feeling of their skin melting down in flames), I try to stay away from such themes.
That is how I see the matter of ethics and preferences regarding BDSM fantasies myself.
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An interesting point. I deal mostly in erotic comedy these days (either in story or manips), but have certainly written more "dramatic" stories of cruelty, crucifixion, and death. I never imagined that my characters enjoyed the experience. For me, the fantasy aspect is in the visceral and vicarious experience of strong emotion. Resignation, hopelessness, and despair in the face of death are fascinating, and confer a sort of innocence on the victim. Coupled with the humiliation of the execution experience, which is a sort of helplessness, this makes for a strong erotic element in those sorts of fantasies. For me, this is purely through imagery and art. Like you, I would never want to inflict that sort of pain or torture on anyone in reality. I have mentioned to a few other fellow writers/artists on the forums here that writing a story of that sort actually causes a physiological reaction for me, akin to anxiety, since I feel something like affection for most of my characters. Anyway, that's all part of the fantasy experience for me.
fallenmystic
Tribune
I think I understand what you said, and I do agree with the sentiments.
Actually, I see it more or less as a coin. What I mean is, it's something similar to two different sides of the same coin, and its appearance changes depending on the perspective. Except pure sadists or masochists among us (which is, of course, not a bad thing), we all love such psychological aspect of sexual torments to some degree, which including such "resignation, hopelessness, and despair" you wrote the victim's mind who are suffering such a fate.
The only difference, I believe, is that, some of us prefer to see the coin from its head's side, while others from the tail's end. As such, those who have a tendency to enjoy such stories from the victim's perspective like myself have narrower margin for actual physical pain involved in such fantasies before I feel put off by imagining such agonizing pain on my own body.
But if you happened to see the same coin from the opposite end, it's perfectly natural to see the victim through its most gory demise, because the pain is on the victim's, not yours, in that case. And the same goes for those who can view the coin from the side, as a spectator's perspective.
So, I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, but of personal preferences.
Who can blame me if say I love pineapples in my pizza anyway?
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So very similar to mi own views. I do sometimes worry about the effects such things do have on both us and others, though. But since I'm selfish, I don't let such worries stop me from indulging mi interests.
And as for preferences, I've noticed that I'm something of a half-switch - I can dom as myself or a character, but I can only sub as the latter. I guess it's a defense mechanism of some sort - I don't find much pleasure in imaging miself as a victim.
Indeed, while everyone of course has their own tastes, I have to admit to finding the number of victims on this site who embrace their suffering a little odd. Especially for crux, as intense and fatal as it is.
Taken in context, I think I see your point, but I need to remind you and all readers that any form of fantasy involving children will never be tolerated on this site.
fallenmystic
Tribune
I can assure you that you won't have to worry that from me. Aside from my lacking interest of that particular fetish, and my sympathy for those who do (and share similar ethical standards as mine), I understand there are also practical problems to consider which may bring to the entire site severe repercussions if ignored.
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Indeed - it 's just more trouble than it 's worth, especially given that the kind of fantasies we indulge here are unpopular enough with mainstream society.
In support of what Wragg said earlier, it is not a matter of what fantasies a person may have individually or in the privacy of their own mind. It is not just a matter of the morality (or lack thereof) at CruxForums. There are serious legal issues involved regarding any mention of underage persons on a forum like this. We exist "at the pleasure" of society, so to speak, and, whether we have fantasies of whatever sort and have morally come to terms with them or not, we are subject to certain legal realities.
I appreciate that the mention in earlier posts was meant to illustrate a philosophical point, and not an endorsement of any particular behaviour. That said, and as Wragg indicated, depictions of underage characters, even as bystanders in a story or image, is not tolerated, but we would also also appreciate it if members could find other "examples" in discussing these interesting moral/ethical issues. It is really not that hard to spend whole months at CF without once discussing anything to do with anyone under 18.
I appreciate that the mention in earlier posts was meant to illustrate a philosophical point, and not an endorsement of any particular behaviour. That said, and as Wragg indicated, depictions of underage characters, even as bystanders in a story or image, is not tolerated, but we would also also appreciate it if members could find other "examples" in discussing these interesting moral/ethical issues. It is really not that hard to spend whole months at CF without once discussing anything to do with anyone under 18.
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The bottom line is, our service provider, XenForo, on the whole a very satisfactory support system,
and broad-minded, are (understandably) categorical - no depiction, no mention, of under-age.
They don't want to be shut down, nor do we want them to shut us down.
and broad-minded, are (understandably) categorical - no depiction, no mention, of under-age.
They don't want to be shut down, nor do we want them to shut us down.
DomFuetteur
Condemned
I'm over 80 and new to CF in Nov 2024; Never involved with others of similar mind to mine, until now. For years, since my wife and I parted, oh, and apart from a very few later -life 'vanilla' affairs, I've been ploughing a solitary furrow of auto-exploration into my psyche. I deliberately pursued ideas of the utmost depravity to see how far I would go in imagination, while IRL, vehemently arguing for human rights, vilifying exploiters and abusers and weeping over news of innocents suffering. I believe that anything I can imagine has been perpetrated somewhere or somewhen in human history. I believe that every human mind could embrace the full spectrum of human nature's extremes from saintly to Satanic. That human beings don't more often 'go off the rails' is surely because our lives are constrained by cultural conventions, our upbringing, education and wholesome experiences as processed within our unique minds. For me, exploring and releasing from social constraints, those alluring notions that are tempting and gratifying, is necessary to free myself to be truly human. I'm not a psychologist but I have observed the world for seven decades beginning in WWII, and I see madness in the ascendant. But not in my head, not in my conduct, and I often find ideas I concluded some years since, are echoed in the here and now by quite eminent people. Perhaps they also secretly 'let off steam' - release their potential humanity through fantasies, that else would lurk in the depths, never shaking off shackles of conformity that inhibit our spirits. Have I nailed it?
This sounds reasonably familiar. I'm not sure I go so far as "the utmost depravity", but there is a tantalizing connection between pain and pleasure, suffering and ecstasy, sex and death, etc. I don't think it is necessarily that contradictory to be fascinated by suffering and death, while simultaneously, not actually wishing suffering on people. There is a poignancy in the suffering and destruction of the innocent and beautiful, but that doesn't mean I want children to die. I sincerely don't.
I think most of us are naturally attuned to care for our fellow people and not cause harm. That may be partially due to cultural conditioning - nobody learns to be a fully functioning human on their own. That said, those who would "go off the rails" seem to do so due to some traumatic event that affects them, or they are psychopathic. These people are those who got the same teaching and conditioning as the rest of us, but function without those filters or limitations. That is different than exploring things through fantasy and that fantasy exploration of the painful and the erotic or the depraved tends to function, I think, as a foil for our own morality, as opposed to signalling that our morality and humanity is lacking.
Perhaps. There is a sense of stepping outside conformity here, and in these themes we explore. I'm still trying to figure it out, I suppose, and I'm some 20 years behind you there (as a human anyway). As my alter ego, I'm not really quite sure why people are the way they are. Perhaps it's a nagging sense that things like mercy and justice are somewhat imaginary concepts.
AFTER ALL, WHEN IT COMES RIGHT DOWN TO IT, THERE REALLY ISN'T ANY MERCY OR JUSTICE. THERE'S JUST ME.
WELCOME HERE, BY THE WAY. ALWAYS NICE TO MEET ANOTHER PHILOSOPHICAL MIND.
fallenmystic
Tribune
I was wondering who resurrected this old thread, but I'm glad to find out that it was for such a thought-provoking post. I believe that's a common explanation (although rarely argued with such eloquence) given by many who indulge themselves in dark fantasies or those who try to understand them that it's a way of expressing our hidden nature in a benign manner or "letting off steam" to release the urge to act on such instincts in real life. I think there's some truth in that explanation, but I also feel it may not depict the whole picture.
I already mentioned above how I maintain strict boundaries between my fantasies and what I believe in real life. And I suspect most people may have a similar stance, whether or not they realise it.
Take the crucifixion fantasy, for example. If a person enjoys imagining themselves to be nailed on a cross, would it be accurate to say their nature desires agony or death accompanied by such an act? And even if they may argue those are not the essence of it, the distinction will surely evaporate the moment a nail begins to tear their flesh and crush the bones. So, even when they say they secretly dream of being crucified, it's actually the thought of the act that they crave, not anything that would accompany it in reality.
My point is that it may not be accurate to explain our dark fantasies solely as an alternative to what our nature desires secretly but cannot act upon because of society's conventions. Maybe it'd make more sense for the sadists and dominants among us because history has ample evidence to convince us that violence and power certainly have their intoxicating charm. But for the submissive and masochistic types, I think it's far less clear. At best, it's a taste of the things they fancy in a safe and controlled environment that they actually desire, not what they'd really entail without such a safety net (e.g. the agony of being burnt alive for real).
As such, I suspect our fantasies may not entirely be a coping mechanism for what our nature wants but cannot obtain. Maybe they are, in fact, the actual object of our nature's desire, so they might be a goal rather than mere means. After all, things like that are what set us above other animals - animals can surely kill each other, but I highly doubt any of them can enjoy fantasising about being caught and butchered by humans.
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Zephirantes
Magistrate
I perfectly agree.
I'm not fully sure I'm not actually depraved in a sense, but at the very least I think I'm a decent fellow at least (mind however that I may not be the best judge of my own's character).
Yeah, I think one can be both decent and depraved at the same time: depraved in thinking, decent in behaving.
I think I never actually harmed anyone, voluntary or not (on the other side, it's not that I actually did much good either: I'm no saint), and do my best to be polite with everyone (I hate rude people).
But, sure, I have a wild imagination.
I have an interesting situation in mind.The only 'victims' on this site are computer generated images or flights of our imaginations.
But the main purpose of this thread is to provide a place where we can chat about the ethics and morals of what we do without derailing threads or causing consternation to the thread-starter or those that post on a thread with good intentions of contributing to that thread. Therefore, if a thread is sidetracked by such an off-topic debate we mods can shift the posts over here, and leave the thread itself clear for those who are enjoying it.
Feedback about the posts and constructive criticism is not, by the way, 'off topic'.
I explicated it some time ago, but I wanna restate it here.
It came after a very old discussion with snuff-author CH Makoto (here you can find her excellent stories).
Consider this: just assume the many-world interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct (nobody really knows for sure, speak with your local theoretical physicist in case).
If it is true, then also all things you imagine must really occur somewhere, in some parallel universe (not ours, luckily!).
So I wondered... would I continue to think and write about painful and deadly crucifixions, knowing that what I think and write will result in some poor girls in some parallel universe being hurt and killed mercilessly?
For me the answer is a reluctant... yes: I wanna be 100% free in my mind, whatever the cost for everyone else.
It's not that I don't care, it's just that I don't care enough to stop myself from thinking and imagining what I like. Sorry (not sorry).
I can somewhat excuse myself by saying that, yes, my thoughts and writings might hurt & kill these poor innocent girls in their own parallel world that i ideated myself, but at the same time they... I have made them alive, albeit for just some short painful moments.
And, also, while I subject them to tortures and death, my executioners are always as kind and respectful as possible... considering their profession at least.
And, Finally, all 'my' victims cum at least once before they snuff it, so they cannot complain too much 'bout how I treat 'em (ok, ok, I'm joking here
: they can complain, but won't change anything anyway).Still, I think it might be an interesting question for everyone.
It's a bit abstract but... as I said, nobody knows for sure if this many-world interpretation is real or not.
I suspect it is not, but... might well deserve a thought.
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I mean, to be fair - while some people's feelings may be on this level (I know some possible examples), if others say their desire is true, is there any way to tell besides by testing in a rather questionable fashion?
(Certainly there are those who enjoy, in some fashion, quite torturous forms of BDSM, no?)
fallenmystic
Tribune
I think the gap between, say, a BDSM session involving a mock crucifixion and a real Ancient Roman style execution is pretty wide.
And even if we consider harsher forms of the practice, they are still a means to enliven fantasies within the limit of one’s pain tolerance, rather than a substitute for an unfulfilled desire for death or permanent injuries, hindered by social conventions.
So, even in such cases, I’d argue that fantasy is the end itself, not necessarily need to be interpreted as a substitute or a coping mechanism for something more real and sinister.
Zephirantes
Magistrate
I totally agree with you.
Most of our lives are rather unnatural (in this context 'natural' is... what other, non technological living beings do and behave like), and so are our thoughts.
I suppose that the thoughts of people thrilled by snuff and death are more unnatural than others.
And I'm okay with that. 'Natural' is boring (for me at least).
I don't think I really need to be redeemed or anything, but, if I really had to indicate redeeming qualities of mine... well, the first is that I'm polite, but the close second is that I usually imagine myself as the victim (independently from the victim's gender: I have written a couple of stories with male victims also), and fantasize about what I would feel thru the victim's experience.
The third quality is that I'm a funny person I think: never interacted with someone with more than 5 minutes without dropping one or two jokes I think. Unfortunately this behavior is not always well received, most people take themselves and what they do so seriously
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Indeed!
My stories do tend to the surreal so I'm more okay with the gore, but as I usually identify with the victim, in my stories there's little to no debasement and name-calling, and, for instance, literally zero (0) rapes.
That would be degrading, so you won't find that stuff in my stories.
Even between my executioners and my executees there's a certain degree of... negotiation.
Another thing I don't enjoy, due the aforementioned reason, is "breaking" a victim, like, mentally.
I like my victims (me) exposed naked while suffering and dying, but still remaining themselves (myself) until the very end.
Death will make all of us equal forever for real sooner or later, I'm well aware of that, but before that happens the differences matter.
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I am considering making an exception to my rules and assembling a story centered on two careless executioners for once.
Two butchers live dissecting two sentenced women: the butchers chitchat of the weather and stuff like that while the disemboweled women scream and complain about being cut open and their intestines and internal organs going...
The redeeming quality of this story would be that it would be darkly funny I think. And, well, the butchers might finger their pussies as they open the, might be of some help.
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Mind you, professor Balkan (a fictional character of two stories of mine) barely tolerates that:Who can blame me if say I love pineapples in my pizza anyway?
Cruxstrike! or... 'Via Verrucosa' [female crucifixion][Roman setting][various tortures][semi-cons./reluctant victim]
In the distant outpost of Lumetia Umbariorum, a small village at the far reaches of the Roman Empire, the pompous and vain General Marcus Scrotus Verrucosus seeks to stage a grand spectacle to mark his latest “triumph”—a minor victory over the nearly forgotten tribe of the Umbarian people...
www.cruxforums.com
Notice anything?” the professor asked, interrupting Jill's reading.
“Is that a... quote from something?” asked Karen.
“Yes, I seem to remember but...” added Brad, undecided. “I don't know, from 'Kill Bill' maybe?”
“I think it's from 'Avengers',” a male voice from the back of the classroom stated confidently.
Professor Balkan tolerates many things, including people who eat pizza with pineapples and philistines who spread foie gras on bread, but if there is one thing he detests in the highest degree, it is those who don't like the movies he likes and who, more importantly, know crappy movies inside out.
Yes, he is that kind of person.
His voice became shrill and unpleasant, like a knife flaying the bones of its victim.
“No, just no! It's from 'Unforgiven' dammit, a masterpiece of modern cinema. Don't you take the modern film class with Professor Warren anymore? She's got shitty taste too, but at least she covers Eastwood's cinema in her syllabus...”
“But... Professor Warren, you know, she was found disemboweled in her office at the beginning of the semester,” Bill replies, not at all comfortable recalling this event.
It shook the entire Salem community, and the person who cut her open from pussy to sternum is still missing.
“Oh yeah, I forgot about that, what a tragedy,” retorted Professor Balkan with an expression that seemed to belie his condolences. “Jill, please read on, let us forget such bloody events...”
An at least bizarre statement while reading a tale of crucifixions...
I'm a bit scared by him 'cause, you know, I suspect this cultured fellow actually eviscerated a female colleague by opening her from vag to sternum... I cannot prove this in court yet but... better not make him angry!
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