Sorry, not from me... the Church switched from Latin to English just as I was becoming an alter boy!!!
-
Sign up or login, and you'll have full access to opportunities of forum.
Jedakk's Masterpiece
- Thread starter admihoek
- Start date
Yes, you're on the right lines Jeddak: imprecor (literally, 'pray against') is tricky,
a deponent verb (passive in form though active in meaning), imprecate can't be right.
Domino suo imprecata est would = 'she cursed her Master',
but I think for a titulus, DOMINO SVO IMPRECATOR would do,
it would mean '[one who] curses her own Master'.
Another verb, exsecror (lit. 'make unholy') seems to have been more common,
and perhaps carried a somewhat stronger sense ('execrate');
it's another deponent, but takes the accusative, so
DOMINVM SVVM EXSECRATOR.
a deponent verb (passive in form though active in meaning), imprecate can't be right.
Domino suo imprecata est would = 'she cursed her Master',
but I think for a titulus, DOMINO SVO IMPRECATOR would do,
it would mean '[one who] curses her own Master'.
Another verb, exsecror (lit. 'make unholy') seems to have been more common,
and perhaps carried a somewhat stronger sense ('execrate');
it's another deponent, but takes the accusative, so
DOMINVM SVVM EXSECRATOR.
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
In looking at the definitions of the verbs, it seems to me that your first option fits better with the context of the story. She's accused of placing a curse on her master, which is a bit different than the sense of "exsecrator" which is, as you said, making unholy. It would depend on the connotations they associated with each word in the first century AD too. My main character, who is a follower of Christ, might have some concept of holiness, sacredness, etc., but her opinion doesn't matter. All of the rest are typical Romans who worship Roman gods.
Ok, so "DOMINO SVO IMPRECATOR" it is. Sure is going to be hard to read without the spaces; maybe I'll put a dot over the first letters of each word like ancient Romans sometimes did.
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
On reflection, perhaps genitive with the verbal noun:
DOMINI SVI EXSECRATOR 'her Master's curser',
it sounds more elegant, and is briefer still for the titulus
Hmm... Looks like you're more of the opinion that "exsecrator" is the appropriate word? Didn't see this before my last post.
It's hard to see much difference in the 1st century, e.g. Virgil used both in what seem pretty similar senses,
and either verb, used without further explanation, implied 'wishing for something nasty to happen to someone'.
In later (and Christian) Latin, imprecor became more neutral, simply 'pray for something [for somebody]',
c.f. 'imprecation' in modern English, so a word like malum would be needed to specify a curse (Domino suo malum imprecator),
whereas ex(s)ecror kept, and maybe strengthened, its sense of cursing with hatred, c.f mn. Eng. 'execration'.
and either verb, used without further explanation, implied 'wishing for something nasty to happen to someone'.
In later (and Christian) Latin, imprecor became more neutral, simply 'pray for something [for somebody]',
c.f. 'imprecation' in modern English, so a word like malum would be needed to specify a curse (Domino suo malum imprecator),
whereas ex(s)ecror kept, and maybe strengthened, its sense of cursing with hatred, c.f mn. Eng. 'execration'.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
Ok, you've convinced me! That all makes sense and there's historical context for it. I'll go with "DOMINI SVI EXSECRATOR". I just wrote that part into the story where my main character sees the titulus and how the letters have been painted neatly with a dot over the beginning of each word so it can be easily read by the onlookers. And it makes her realize that they've been planning her crucifixion for a long time. They were only waiting for the word to come and take her. That gives me an excuse for having the titulus neatly lettered.
Things don't just happen when I write a story; there has to be a reason!
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
Well, could be but I don't think it really fits in this case. She's falsely accused, so it's just a pretext by the domina to get the pretty young slave who was bedding her master out of the way and punished at the same time while the master happens to be gone and doesn't find out in time to save her. Sounds a bit convoluted when I say it that way, although it didn't seem that way when I wrote it. I hope this can be a short story but I have a hell of a time keeping the word count down when describing a crucifixion. And then there are the illustrations that blow things up.
Naraku
Draconarius
The Romans were - by today's standards - a very superstitious people. Although the likes of Pliny the Elder & Cicero condemned it, even the elite believed strongly in the power of magic: curses, charms, loves spells. Julia may truly believe that Sabina used a love spell. And, a slave using any kind of magic on their master would have been a serious, and crufiable (is that a word?) offense.
S
shannonb100
Guest
Why would you want to keep the word count down? A good story (and you write nothing else) can be as long as it needs to be
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
No, Naraku, this has nothing to do with Sabina, Julia Lepida, or "The Serpent's Eye"! We were discussing something about a different story I am writing.
Yes, the Romans were very superstitious. How else to explain what they saw happening around them? There were no tools available to enable them to investigate much beyond what they could see, hear, touch, taste or smell. Anything they couldn't sense or fit into their understanding of the natural world pretty much had to be magic of some kind.
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
shannon, you're right, I won't skimp on a good story for the sake of brevity. But I also don't want to get too verbose, bring in unnecessary details that aren't really relevant to the goal of the story, etc.
My working title, which might change, is "Arria's Punishment." From that, you can probably deduce that the main character's name is Arria. For this new story, I was originally thinking that I might just pick up the action at the end of the nailing and raising and continue from there, just a two-page short story mainly to elaborate on something you and I have discussed. I didn't even plan to say why or how the victim came to be crucified, but then my imagination took over and wouldn't shut up. Now I think it's five pages and counting, and I already have one scene illustrated. And frankly, Arria is beautiful, so I'm going to need to do several scenes with her for illustrations.
This crucifixion is a bit different and I can't just throw those differences out there without explanation. Now I've got a story that begins at an earlier point and maybe ends later than I planned. Crap, I just thought of another ending for it and I guess I'll have to write that now, dammit!
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
Getting back to "The Serpent's Eye", we last saw Sabina struggling to raise herself on the cross, trying to avoid the point of the cornu between her legs. Now she's paused for a moment, trying to catch her breath and let some of the agony in her wrists subside while fighting the pain of the nails in her feet. But the agony, the struggle to breathe, all combine to make her head swim, her vision darken. She knows she's about to faint, and with the cornu below, she knows what that will mean.
Here's what Julia Lepida describes as she watches Sabina:
Here's what Julia Lepida describes as she watches Sabina:
She gritted her teeth against the pain, but then her eyes began to roll up and her head nodded forward. She was about to faint again. She shook her head, moaning the word “no”, as she fought to remain conscious.
Attachments
S
shannonb100
Guest
i think all of us are eagerly awaiting Arria's Punishment. i know i am.
D
Deleted member jedakk
Guest
Continuing on with Sabina's crucifixion, she fights to remain conscious, knowing that if she faints now, it means that she will drop onto the cornu between her legs. She's not yet desperate enough to "ride the unicorn" in search of some relief from the pain of the nails. Surrendering her private places to its mercies before a jeering crowd horrifies her, but that will change. Julia Lepida describes the scene as follows:
Her straining legs quivered and she slipped downward a little, felt the point of the cornu touch her and pressed her thighs together tightly, clenching her buttocks to keep it from entering her, shifting her hips a little to the right. Still battling to keep from fainting, she dropped a little lower and moaned the word “no” again. The blunt point of the cornu made a deep dimple in the left cheek of her buttocks as it pressed into her soft flesh.
She threw back her head and gave a loud groan of pain as she slipped still lower and more of her body’s weight rested on the point.
To my eye, this is one of my better crucifixion poses even though her thighs are pressed tightly together and she's not so exposed. Her whole body is shifted to the right because she's trying to rest her left butt cheek on the cornu rather than let it enter her. Her pelvis is tilted down to the right because her weight is resting on the point of the cornu under her left butt cheek, and the twist of her body and legs follows from there. This was a difficult pose to get right but I think it's effective.She threw back her head and gave a loud groan of pain as she slipped still lower and more of her body’s weight rested on the point.
Attachments
such effort expended on the smallest of comfort...
More than effective, Jedakk, it's very real and believable -
zapping through those images, she 'dances' so realistically.
I was geekishly thinking in bed last night what Sabina would have said in Latin, which had no exact equivalent to 'no'.
Perhaps 'noli', 'don't' (telling herself not to give up, or 'don't let it happen')?
Or 'non', 'not' (thinking, but too weak to say, 'non possum' 'I can't...')?