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To Eul's point in movies they never showed the logistical support but even in 'modern' warfare

if you care...

T

Logistical support is vital for any kind of organised military force and disorganised military forces are simply there to die in droves. One point of modern mechanised warfare is that the spearhead formations typically tend to run out of fuel to proceed further after an advance of about 250 miles/400 kilometres. This happened to the Germans invading France in 1940, Patton going the other way in 1944 and to the Gulf War II spearheads.

The key trick was getting the supplies up to those spearheads as quickly as possible before the enemy could recover. The Germans managed it (mostly because the British and French were too slow on the recovery), The Americans managed in 2003...the Soviets were to manage to beat the limit in Manchuria in 1945 but the forces they faced were lightly armed by WW1 standards facing possibly the best army the Soviet Union ever fielded. In 1944 Patton was up against the Germans who were warfare's top improvisers of the period and still to face the West Wall so I think he was being optimistic...though given his record he would have given it a damn good go.

In Roman times the pace of operations was more limited but the same strong constraints were felt just as keenly.
 
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Thanks for providing more detail, RR.

I always found it odd that a "century" seems to never have numbered 100 men. I can't help wondering if this was a deliberate deception intended to make an enemy think they were facing a larger number of troops than they really were. A Legion was (ideally) composed of 5,400 men devided into 10 maniples, later called cohorts, each comprising 6 centuries of 80 men. The actual numbers varied & by the end of the Western Empire, legions were down to about 1.000 men each.

About logistics: The Roman Army did not include many specialist. There were some soldiers that might be what we could call medics & a fort would have armorers & blacksmiths. But, in the field, the army fended for itself. One of the great advanages of the Roman army was its skill in military engineering. They could throw up fortifications or build bridges or siege engines in a fairly short period of time. They did this without an engineering corp through superior organization.

Like most armies before modern times, the legions on the move relied on foraging, since the only "fuel" they needed was food for the men & animals. Through out history, an invading army (or even a "friendly" one) was like a horde of locusts, stripping the land & leaving little for the local population. In fixed locations, the Romans did rely on supply lines & local trade. The men on Hadrian's Wall, drank wine from Italy & Spain. Many towns in Europe & England developed from support & trade settlements built up around Roman forts. And many people got rich suppling the army.

Eulalia, you bring up an interesting question. Moving a large number of captives from Gaul to Rome would have been quite a task. I think one possibility is that there were professional slave traders traveling with or close behind the army to handle that. After all, the soldiers couldn't be expected to sell the slaves themselves but they were expecting to get a share of the proceeds.
 
It occured to me that, while we geeks might find it fascinating, all this talk of military tactics is of ittle use to someone writing a crux story. After all, the crucifixions came after a battle, not during.
Perhaps of more interest would be something on the systems of ranks within the Roman army. The Romans may have had the first army in which ranks were based on merit & experience & not - at least officially - on family liniage or wealth. Something that would not recur until the rise of professional standing armies in the Early Modern Period.

At the bottom weere the Tirones (tyros), these were trainees in their 1st 6 month of enlistment.
Next, the Milite or Munifax, the privates or "grunts" of the Legion.
The Decanus was the equivilent of a Sergeant, in command of a squad of 8 men.
The Optio was second in command of Century. A lieutenant.
The Centurio commanded a Century. A captain.
The Primus Pilus (1st spear), lead centurio, Say a major or lt colonel.
The Tribunus Legionis, staff officer of a legion. A lt colonel or colonel.
The Tribunus Laticlavius, second in command of legion. About a colonel or brigadier.
And the Legatus Legionis, the commanding general.

There were also a number of specialized ranks. This source offers pretty easily understood breakdown.
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/career.html

I think I included the link to the home site before, but it'd be a few pages. It's a pretty good general source for information on the Empire & especially the army.
http://www.roman-empire.net/index.html
 
OK a little late to this discussion, but a few points

Cruxing was not a punishment limited to the Romans. The Greeks used it as did the Phoenicians and being those groups traveled extensively I'm sure the idea got around.

As Primus Poenus, I thank you for the recognition :)

The problem was that after a few initial victories in which phalanxes rolled over Roman legionaries to their front the Romans found that if they could only flank them while otherwise engaged the result was a massacre as the gladius did its close in thing. The Battle of Pydna being just one example of this happening.

War has always been a game of rock, paper, scissors. The phalanx, a well drilled body of men with long pikes, was reborn at the end of the middle ages and dominated European warfare once again for several centuries

The pilum was brilliant weapon. It was about 2 meters long, but, unlike other javelins, at the tip was a 60 cm (24") long shank of soft iron ending in a hardened pyramid tip. The tip could penitrated shields & armor. But, if it penetrated a shield, the shank would bend, making it difficult to extract & rendering the shield virtually useless.

Here is a picture of some pilums (pila?) No, not there! THERE, at the bottom of the pic. You're looking in the wrong place!
 

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Okay finally an on topic logistics post from I the collector of acorns, nuts, berries, birds' eggs, nubile females etc :D

Under the Marian reforms there seems to have been a deliberate move to reduce the army's reliance on wheeled transport for the carriage of the basic tools and equipment issued to the troops. Instead each Roman legionary (and likely most auxiliary foot soldiers) was issued a forked stick from which he would hang much of his gear on the march. In addition each contubernium of eight men were issued a mule to carry the rest.

In addition at least some soldiers kept servants, (you must not automatically assume all of these were slaves) but I am not sure from my materials if these were limited to the principals (Roman officer and NCO equivalent grades) or if common soldiers were also allowed to follow this practice.

Further the army itself owned a stock of slaves called galearii (helmet wearers) who seem to have been issued some uniform and seem to have managed the baggage train.

Note that while the aim was to get away from wheeled transport this was not entirely possible. Each century was issued a carroballista (oddly enough this means a ballista on a carriage) and each cohort an onager which was a form of torsion powered catapult. These and their other gear would have been carried on wheeled carts.

In addition while as Naraku states forage was always an option it does tend to slow the rate at which an army can march. Thus often the Romans seem to have relied on organising markets ahead of their arriving legions in territories with sympathetic populations or something similar to the magazine system employed by the French in the gunpowder era.

When relying on a central magazine or similar supply point Roman armies tended to keep close to water as this was by far the most effective means of transporting cargo, so campaign would adhere to rivers and or coastlines. Wheeled transport was far more limited being animal drawn by horses, mules, donkeys or oxen and needed good going preferably roads. There is a reason that the wilds of places like Wales and Scotland and the German interior proved difficult to conquer.

I have actually found a rather lacklustre time finding hard sources on how the Romans actually assembled and transported military captives. The Roman writers are by and large great on rhetoric, crap on detail.

This picture of a marble relief in modern Turkey and similar ones found in Mainz do support the use of coffles at least for small parties of captured slaves.

Roman-collared-slaveMarble-relief-Smyrna-Turkey-200AD.-Ashmolean-Museum-Oxford-Wikimedia-Commons.jpg

We also have the works of Julius Caesar and others indicating that professional slave traders followed campaigning armies. What we lack as always are actual details.
 
Thanks guys, a lot of very helpful information,
especially useful to get a handle on the ranks
(which even the best Latin dictionaries translate very vaguely -
no doubt the terms were used differently by different writers at different dates,
but it helps to know what's higher/ lower than what).

On transferring slaves, yes 'legion chasing' slave traders makes sense,
apart from anything else, the legions weren't suppose to march into Italy.
But I guess a selection of 'prize' prisoners were held on to,
and brought to Rome to be paraded in the victor's Triumph.​
 
Working on my Virgin Martyrs research, I've been reading up on Ignatius of Antioch
Who??? :confused::eek::rolleyes: Well he was a very important and influential figure in the early church,
especially in promoting the idea of 'voluntary martyrdom'.
A couple of points struck me as relevant to our discussion about captives being transported to Rome:
  • At the time he was martyred, c107, under Trajan, provincial capitals were required to send condemned prisoners to Rome to be publicly executed in spectacular ways in the Colosseum or the Flavian Amphitheatre;
  • So when he (as bishop of Antioch in Syria) and other Christians were arrested and sentenced, they were escorted by a squad of 10 soldiers on a journey, mainly overland, through Asia Minor, Macedonia and Italy, which would have taken months. He seems to have been treated pretty well, congregations of Christians were allowed to come and greet him along the way, and he was able to write several epistles - presumably a less high-profile and/or less enthusiastic candidate for martyrdom would have had a tougher time.

While many of my VMs are reported to have been executed in their home cities, some were taken a considerable distance, at least to a provincial capital. The scenario of an obstinate, fanatically determined young woman being marched along the Roman miles by a squad of soldiers to face an exciting martyrdom in the arena is quite an arousing one - for me, at least ;)
 
Day 28

Still transporting that bloody Eulalia bint they picked up at Castra Exploratorum. Half way through Gallia Comata and every inn is full of bloody fleas. Raping that bitch ought to be fun but she enjoys it far too much and spends the rest of the time trying to convert you to her weird religion. She is such a screamer I swear that even the never to be sufficiently damned fleas avoid her!



Ave Pape,

As requested I Monsignor Arbor of the Holy Order of the Dominicans have as you Holy Father required been examining Eulalia the Pict as a candidate for beatification. I believe that this entry from the diaries of Remus Rabirius, the Tribune assigned command of her escort does constitute the second miracle required under Church Law. I would advise however that when proclaiming the Miracle of the Fleas we gloss over the turgid and lurid accounts of her carnal encounters with her guards. It further occurs to me that the sale of Saint's Medals that ward off biting vermin would be a lucrative source of income for our private accounts for the sacred works of Holy Mother Church.

From the hand of Monsignor Arbor of the Holy Order of the Dominicans for conveyance and sole perusal by His Holiness Admi I Pape, God’s Own Holy and Most Catholic Church, St Peter’s, right next door to the really big whorehouse, Rome.
 
At the time of the Battle of Teutoburg Forest (9CE), the Roman Legions were transitioning from mail (lorica hamata) to the Lorica Segmenta.The Roman Army had no objection to a soldier using armor & weapons handed down from their father or grandfather - provided it was in good repair - so there would have been many soldiers at the time still wearing mail. Also, Varus's army included 6 cohorts of auxiliary troops, who continued to wear mail or scale armor & 3 squads of cavalry. The Roman cavalry never wore the lorica segmenta which would have been brutal on horseback.

A Roman soldier - despite what you see in movies - avoided one on one sword fights. The gladius hispaniensis was was really too short for that. His main defence was the shield (scutum) linked together in battle formation. Body armor was only to protect against arrows, javelins & any spear point that past the shield.


Naraku dear I'm going to have to take exception to that statement.

First mail armor soldiered on to the end of both the western and eastern empire. There was never a one or the other scenario.

And the gladius was exactly the type of sword used in a one on one sword fight. It depends on your technique not the weapon. Of course the gladius was not used like a long sword, back sword or rapier it is a different type of weapon. But the Roman's lose formation (about 6 square feet per man or about twice what a phalanx warrior used) was designed to allow the soldier maximum maneuvering room.

Despite what you see in hollywood (and other places) your FEET are your first line of defense, your shield second and your sword only as a last resort. The gladius especially was difficult to use in defense as it had no guards.

Too the best of my knowledge no actual sword training texts from the empire are extant today so we can only surmise how the weapon was used but for a moment let's look at the Battle of Visby.

The Battle of Visby was one of the largest Viking on Viking encounters to ever occur and fortunately we know where one of the major graveyards from the battle is. When we examine the remains buried there about 70% have wounds at or below the knee. A strike below the knee is sadly under represented in today's "sword play" but it makes perfect sense. You can't bash away at an opponents shield that is just a waste of time and energy. And while the Roman Legionary had room to move most of his opponents fought from behind a shield in a tight mass.

So if the legionary held his shield high he could "hide" under it, takeout an opponents legs and then stab him either while he was on the way down or chop him up.

No he wasn't going to fence (fensing is only done by duelists or sportsmen) someone with his gladius but he was going to fight with it.

We have a really bad sense (reenforced by stage fighting) of what real sword fights must have been like.

kisses

willowfall
 
Despite what you see in hollywood (and other places) your FEET are your first line of defense- willow

Tree agrees with this! Supposedly in the first 'Indiana Jones' movie when Harrison Ford encountered the sword-wielding bad guy he was feeling well under the weather and pulled his gun and 'shot' the guy with a blank. When the guy went down as a joke they did one more take and an epic sword fight was removed from the script...

...that predates the web, take it for what it is worth....

Tree
 
Naraku dear I'm going to have to take exception to that statement.

First mail armor soldiered on to the end of both the western and eastern empire. There was never a one or the other scenario.

And the gladius was exactly the type of sword used in a one on one sword fight. It depends on your technique not the weapon. Of course the gladius was not used like a long sword, back sword or rapier it is a different type of weapon. But the Roman's lose formation (about 6 square feet per man or about twice what a phalanx warrior used) was designed to allow the soldier maximum maneuvering room.

Despite what you see in hollywood (and other places) your FEET are your first line of defense, your shield second and your sword only as a last resort. The gladius especially was difficult to use in defense as it had no guards.

Too the best of my knowledge no actual sword training texts from the empire are extant today so we can only surmise how the weapon was used but for a moment let's look at the Battle of Visby.

The Battle of Visby was one of the largest Viking on Viking encounters to ever occur and fortunately we know where one of the major graveyards from the battle is. When we examine the remains buried there about 70% have wounds at or below the knee. A strike below the knee is sadly under represented in today's "sword play" but it makes perfect sense. You can't bash away at an opponents shield that is just a waste of time and energy. And while the Roman Legionary had room to move most of his opponents fought from behind a shield in a tight mass.

So if the legionary held his shield high he could "hide" under it, takeout an opponents legs and then stab him either while he was on the way down or chop him up.

No he wasn't going to fence (fensing is only done by duelists or sportsmen) someone with his gladius but he was going to fight with it.

We have a really bad sense (reenforced by stage fighting) of what real sword fights must have been like.

kisses

willowfall
I certainly didn't mean to imply that chainmail ever went out of fashion. It remained in use throughout the Imperial Era among auxillaries & cavalry and, may have remain among the common soldiers as well. I think in any battle from Teutoburg to Adrianople, you would have seen a mix of armors. In fact, by the time of the Battle of Adrianople (378), the lorica segmenta would have been rare because of its expense.

Of course, the feet are important. It doesn't matter how well armed you are, if you don't have the proper stance you'll wind up on your ass (or dead). However, that's not a matter of equipment, but, of training. In fact, the most important piece of "equipment" any soldier can have in any age is their brain.

I still say the gladius wasn't really a fencing sword. Certainly not the way you see it used in movies, where actors bang their swords against each other. I would imagine a fight between 2 oppenants armed with gladii & no shield would have looked more like a knife fight - lots of lunging & slashing.

As for Visby, I don't think that it's a fair comparison. the Viking sword was more like the Roman spatha - a longer sword first used by the Celts that began replacing the gladius sometime in the Second century. The Vikings also used spears & really prefered the long handled axe. In fact, based on some things I've heard about people chopping wood, some of those leg wounds may have been self-inflicted.Anyway the Romans wore greaves to protect the knee & shin.
 

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This is why I don't like putting to much roman detail in the background of my cruxes - just a blank background. Someone would immediately recognize something be it a technique, armor, weapon, or architectural detail that is anachronistic. Also lacking a background emulates the soft focus most porn uses - I know what details most people are looking at.

Perverts.
:p luv y'all.
 
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