• Sign up or login, and you'll have full access to opportunities of forum.

Roman Resources

Go to CruxDreams.com
Thanks Marcius - a pair of interesting articles - the conclusions of both leave the question, how was crucifixion actually done, very wide open - which allows for plenty of imaginative interpretations here on Crux Forums!

Cambridge article:
We must be hesitant to draw a general picture of crucifixion from these sources, but at least some of them testify to individuals carrying the patibulum towards the place of crucifixion. We may carefully assume a common knowledge in/around Rome, but how cross-bearing was rooted in practice in other parts of the Republic and early Empire is less certain. We still know very little about the patibulum, the range of its dimensions, or how it was fastened to either the condemned or the upright post. This shows how limited textual study is: people might have known exactly what crucifixion involved; how it was done might have ‘been in the air’ so to speak, but we are left with fragments and incomplete knowledge. It is vital to look further, not only to the non-Christian Greek sources which speak of carrying a σταυρός – which I intend to do elsewhere – but also to the reception of cross-bearing terminology of the Gospels in Early Christianity, which too may shed light on the cross-bearing sayings.

Brill article:
(1) Modern (re)constructions of how the beams of the cross were lifted and fastened to the already upright pole with slots and cavities, are unwarranted in ancient literature; no modern author refers to ancient evidence.

(2) Some ancient texts explicitly speak of nailing the beams together.

(3) Literary evidence shows different modes of crucifixion. The practice of crucifixion must have been more fluid than often is assumed and presented; this also pertains to the assumption that the vertical post was always already erected.

(4) The Gospel of Peter speaks of “erecting” the cross, which implies that it was lying down. If there was a patibulum, it seems likely that it would have been fastened while on the ground, like in Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ or other popular (cinematic) visualizations of crucifixion. This can lead to a fuller understanding of the gruesome reality of crucifixion.

(5) Literary evidence shows that individuals were nailed to a stake (ξύλον) while lying down. After that, they were erected. In view of the similarity of the punishments, at least regarding the terms used to describe them, this would be a likely alternative to attaching a patibulated victim onto/to an erected stipes.

(6) We still do not know how the whole cross with the crucified individual was raised. In general, ancient sources on crucifixion simply disclose nothing about how the cross was erected, lifted up, or secured into the ground. Nor do these ancient sources disclose how patibula were lifted up and subsequently fastened to an already standing pole.

(7) A possible by-effect of this study is that the Johannine use of ὑψόω is enriched; the term relating to crucifixion has a very practical component, namely the process of raising and fixing Jesus onto the cross.
 
I think the general answer is that crucifixion was used by a huge number of both western and eastern cultures over at least 3 millennia (last 'official' use of crux for execution that I've heard of happened in China in the early 1900s).

Considering trade was far more extensive than is commonly acknowledged (and an idea is easier to carry about than an object) there is no "one way" it was done even inside a unified structure like the Roman Empire.

So have at it because they could be just as sadistic as you can be.

kisses

willowfall
 
There are actually some pretty good Legionary uniforms and weapons available in SL.

Sometimes when I switch I play a Legionary .............

So if you're in SL and want to talk about upgrading your Roman impression (military or civilian) get in touch with me

kisses

willowfall

Willow at the Bridge_001.jpgWillow at the Bridge_002.jpgWillow at the Ready_001.jpg
 
A Czech thesis on The Iconography of Crime and Punishment in Greek and Roman Visual Arts With Special Regard to Female Transgressors is of interest. 'Text práce' is the text (in English! :lily:), 'Příloha práce' -- the pics. No crucifixions, but certain thoughts do resonate with CF discussions.

Did the Ancients prefer innocent or guilty victims?

[T]he scenes dealing with the theme of a punishment may be divided into two subgroups. The first one encompasses negative characters, transgressors themselves, whose infamous deeds violate the social rules and endanger the whole community and whose executions come from the hands of mortal individuals (Dirce, Clytemnestra). The second group refers to indirect punishment – it is not the transgressors themselves who are physically attacked – it is innocent victims suffering for their parents´ sins. Thus, in this case, the transgressor pays the penalty for his/her impiety, usually hybris, (Niobe, Cassiopeia, Agamemnon) by the loss of their beloved offspring (that the death of the innocent victim is not necessarily accomplished is not relevant here).
 
A Czech thesis on The Iconography of Crime and Punishment in Greek and Roman Visual Arts With Special Regard to Female Transgressors is of interest. 'Text práce' is the text (in English! :lily:), 'Příloha práce' -- the pics. No crucifixions, but certain thoughts do resonate with CF discussions.

Did the Ancients prefer innocent or guilty victims?
Thanks Marcius. I've read the conclusion, 'final discussion', 180 - 91 in the pdf - it says some interesting things about the visual portrayal of punishment, subjection and submission in Greek, Etruscan and Roman art, especially of women - the liking for 'triangular composition' emphasising the dominance of the executioner over the prostrate condemned one, the significance of (total or partial) nudity, especially baring of breasts, as a sign of submission, the depiction of the instruments used, etc. It's a pity there aren't any illustrations! Could be of interest to artists here with an interest in the way the kinds of scenes they illustrate were presented in Classical times.

I like the epigraph, Ἀλλ´ ὑπὲρ μὲν τούτων κρινέτω τις ὡς βούλεται 'but I judge them as I please' - a good motto for @thehangingtree !
 
Thanks Marcius. I've read the conclusion, 'final discussion', 180 - 91 in the pdf - it says some interesting things about the visual portrayal of punishment, subjection and submission in Greek, Etruscan and Roman art, especially of women - the liking for 'triangular composition' emphasising the dominance of the executioner over the prostrate condemned one, the significance of (total or partial) nudity, especially baring of breasts, as a sign of submission, the depiction of the instruments used, etc. It's a pity there aren't any illustrations! Could be of interest to artists here with an interest in the way the kinds of scenes they illustrate were presented in Classical times.

I like the epigraph, Ἀλλ´ ὑπὲρ μὲν τούτων κρινέτω τις ὡς βούλεται 'but I judge them as I please' - a good motto for @thehangingtree !
The plates are collected in a separate PDF attachment, Příloha práce.
 
Ah, thanks - that's certainly a necessary companion to the text - a compendious collection of 92 (!) images of scenes in which an individual - male or female - is being done to death, or is in a supplicating pose, whether being punished justly, sacrificed, defeated in combat, etc.. However, the central focus of the thesis is on the portrayal of a female being (at least by Roman standards) justly punished, namely Tarpeia who, in the early days of Rome, was tricked by the Sabines who were attacking the infant city into letting them get into it, promising her the precious ornaments they wore on their arms. But when they'd taken over the city, she found to her horror that those 'ornaments' were their shields, which they used to crush her to death. They despised her as a traitor, no matter that she'd betrayed Rome to them. A nice example of the kind of Stoic moral consistency preached by the Roman military elite - but also of their distrust of women, especially young girls.
 
In a society where being literate was limited, and even worse the ability to transmit the written word to large numbers of people was extremely limited, visual presentation assumes great significance. Especially since the ability to deliver a contrary message is limited by authorities.

To take it out of the realm of CW to a real life application just look at the Battle of Kadesh (1274 BCE). It was fought between the Egyptians and the Hittites for control of the city of Kadesh. On his way home to Egypt Ramesses II left a large number of monuments and cliff side cravings announcing his great "victory". And it often goes into the history books as a great Egyptian victory. Funny thing about that "victory", the Hittites retained control of Kadesh. Obviously the visuals created by Ramesses II were effective.

A great deal of the societal psychology of ancient western societies is about being dominant. Thus much of the public art shows 'our' side dominating (foot on neck, them in chains, etc) 'them'. The Romans consider that the person committing "penetration" was the dominant member in that couple. Nero went so far as to have his favorite boy toy castrated in front of witnesses so nobody could say one of his lovers dominated the Emperor.

And of course in Judeo-Christian. and other ancient cultures myths, writings the female is often portrayed as a source of weakness if not down right evil.

This is why public executions (for whatever the reason) were important to show the power of the state over the criminal or enemy. Nobody was going to read about it in the Rome Times or see it on Athens TV.

kisses

willowfall
 
In a society where being literate was limited, and even worse the ability to transmit the written word to large numbers of people was extremely limited, visual presentation assumes great significance. Especially since the ability to deliver a contrary message is limited by authorities.

To take it out of the realm of CW to a real life application just look at the Battle of Kadesh (1274 BCE). It was fought between the Egyptians and the Hittites for control of the city of Kadesh. On his way home to Egypt Ramesses II left a large number of monuments and cliff side cravings announcing his great "victory". And it often goes into the history books as a great Egyptian victory. Funny thing about that "victory", the Hittites retained control of Kadesh. Obviously the visuals created by Ramesses II were effective.

A great deal of the societal psychology of ancient western societies is about being dominant. Thus much of the public art shows 'our' side dominating (foot on neck, them in chains, etc) 'them'. The Romans consider that the person committing "penetration" was the dominant member in that couple. Nero went so far as to have his favorite boy toy castrated in front of witnesses so nobody could say one of his lovers dominated the Emperor.

And of course in Judeo-Christian. and other ancient cultures myths, writings the female is often portrayed as a source of weakness if not down right evil.

This is why public executions (for whatever the reason) were important to show the power of the state over the criminal or enemy. Nobody was going to read about it in the Rome Times or see it on Athens TV.

kisses

willowfall
I have been trying to read Plato in Greek (dual language book, and the English is almost as snobby as the Greek)--don't ask why. Anyway, Timaeus is supposed to be a science book--how the gods came to be, how the world was created and runs. So the man is talking about the creation of human beings. Each being coming out of the mixing bowl has his own star, to which, if he is just (not really defined anywhere, although explored at length through "case studies"), he returns in bliss at the end of his days. If he is not just, however, he is reincarnated as a WOMAN. (That's as far as I've gotten, anyway). I tried reading some of "Republic" too, and as a neophyte I may be missing something, but this guy seems to be an egotistical know-it-all blow hard with a vivid imagination. I don't know why he is so revered, but then again I tend to look for facts first and think in terms of the material, not the hidden mysteries of the "spirit realm". I always refer to myself as a science bigot.
 
I tried reading some of "Republic" too, and as a neophyte I may be missing something, but this guy seems to be an egotistical know-it-all blow hard with a vivid imagination. I don't know why he is so revered, but then again I tend to look for facts first and think in terms of the material, not the hidden mysteries of the "spirit realm".

Always remember "science" becomes outdated very quickly. Man couldn't fly until he did. We couldn't get to the moon until we did. The Mayans were peaceful people in touch with nature until they weren't. I could go on and on ....... and in 100 years a lot of our "science" will be considered nonsense.

Considering their level of technology the Greeks (and MANY ancient peoples) did fantastically well in using observation to come to valid 'scientific' conclusions about the world around them. Much of their math is still valid today and they managed to get pretty close to the actually circumference of the earth without being able to look at it from above.

And political concepts developed by the ancient Greeks ARE the founding concepts of modern western liberal democracy and the importance of the individual over the state.

Science is not an answer to everything. For example take the 'Big Bang Theory'. It doesn't jive with what we know about physics. If the singularity always existed why did it suddenly explode (a body at rest stays at rest until acted on by an outside force)? And if it suddenly came into existence, how and why? And if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?

The most elegant statement in science is "I do not know" and the second one is "Lack of proof of existence is not proof of lack of existence" (may I remind of everybody about the finding of the "extinct" Coelacanths about 60-70 years ago, They were assumed gone MILLIONS of years before one was caught.).

You have to judge a "great" person from the past not against our standards or knowledge (and let's face it the VAST majority of us don't develop knowledge we acquire it from the work of people a whole lot smarter than we are) but against their own time and culture.

kisses

willowfall
 
if he is just (not really defined anywhere, although explored at length through "case studies")
I don't the Timaeus well enough, I've only dipped into it to try to get my head around Plato's concept of the relationship between the ultimate reality, or Good, and the world as we (falsely) experience it. But surely the question, what is justice?, is the main theme of The Republic? It's typical of the 'Socratic method' to examine, and show up the faults in, various 'case studies', on the way to a more adequate answer.
 
Always remember "science" becomes outdated very quickly. Man couldn't fly until he did. We couldn't get to the moon until we did. The Mayans were peaceful people in touch with nature until they weren't. I could go on and on ....... and in 100 years a lot of our "science" will be considered nonsense.

Considering their level of technology the Greeks (and MANY ancient peoples) did fantastically well in using observation to come to valid 'scientific' conclusions about the world around them. Much of their math is still valid today and they managed to get pretty close to the actually circumference of the earth without being able to look at it from above.

And political concepts developed by the ancient Greeks ARE the founding concepts of modern western liberal democracy and the importance of the individual over the state.

Science is not an answer to everything. For example take the 'Big Bang Theory'. It doesn't jive with what we know about physics. If the singularity always existed why did it suddenly explode (a body at rest stays at rest until acted on by an outside force)? And if it suddenly came into existence, how and why? And if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?

The most elegant statement in science is "I do not know" and the second one is "Lack of proof of existence is not proof of lack of existence" (may I remind of everybody about the finding of the "extinct" Coelacanths about 60-70 years ago, They were assumed gone MILLIONS of years before one was caught.).

You have to judge a "great" person from the past not against our standards or knowledge (and let's face it the VAST majority of us don't develop knowledge we acquire it from the work of people a whole lot smarter than we are) but against their own time and culture.

kisses

willowfall
I certainly agree it is unfair to criticize Plato because 2600 years ago he didn't know a lot (as you say with the Big Bang, we don't know a lot either--a lot of people think the mathematics of relativity will break down at the "singular point" in a black hole and that is where quantum mechanics which per Feynman "nobody understands" will merge with relativity). I object to two things with Plato. One is his tone (the guy was 80 or so when he died so he may have regretted the tone of some of his earlier stuff) which denigrates anyone who disagrees with him. The other is his reliance on untested premises to confidently assert his conclusions (Timaeus did say that one can't be sure about the stuff he was about to spew forth, then belted out things in great detail which were really just pure speculation). What bothers me about philosophy in general is the reliance on pure noodling to come to conclusions, without real systematic, disciplined observation. A good example is "consciousness" (which no one understands). There is a "spiritually oriented" guy (like Plato) who wrote something on consciousness called "What is it like to be a bat", implying animals can't be "conscious". What does he mean by "like"--he doesn't say, but that is the crux of the whole problem. Bats certainly aren't just robots who react to novel things or random events mechanically (ants are more robotic, but even they show some plasticity). Can it just be a property of the brain, which appears to be unique to humans (I don't think it is unique to humans--behavior is more of degrees than of qualitative difference) because we have more connections? Or is it some spiritual quality above the natural world? The latter requires evidence (why are there differences, say, in the soulful properties of infants versus toddlers versus teenagers versus adults versus Alzheimer's patients versus schizophrenics?). Maybe it is. But "brain science" is steadily winnowing the scope of spiritual properties. Looking into the sky and asking "great Plato" to show us the golden tablet--as say Allan Bloom in the "Closing of the American Mind" seemed to do--is not the way to proceed. Plato does not do "science" in the sense of probing and verifying.
 
I don't the Timaeus well enough, I've only dipped into it to try to get my head around Plato's concept of the relationship between the ultimate reality, or Good, and the world as we (falsely) experience it. But surely the question, what is justice?, is the main theme of The Republic? It's typical of the 'Socratic method' to examine, and show up the faults in, various 'case studies', on the way to a more adequate answer.
Yes, I stopped reading Republic because the Socratic method got so tedious. Answers were not emerging. Greeks apparently even got tired of Socrates' endless questioning on this topic (again I am not an expert in this). There is a snippet from Xenophon Memorabilia in which one Hippias of Elis basically makes fun of Socrates as he goes over the same old ground without any conclusion. (Someone said that, to his credit, Socrates kept asking because he didn't know.)
So doesn't the Republic end with a god-like philosopher-king (coincidentally like Plato) assigning everyone else to their roles and making the final decisions himself? He takes the views and feelings of others into account only when he wants to. He may not pick up on real problems which he himself does not experience and so cannot see. In short, he doesn't have to empathize, understand, or question.
There is a lot of political turmoil right now and mindless grievance, but it comes from somewhere, there are real concerns (misguided or not) that people have that must be understood, and it won't go away via police actions or brown and black shirts marching around intimidating the complainers.
 
Last edited:
I don't the Timaeus well enough, I've only dipped into it to try to get my head around Plato's concept of the relationship between the ultimate reality, or Good, and the world as we (falsely) experience it. But surely the question, what is justice?, is the main theme of The Republic? It's typical of the 'Socratic method' to examine, and show up the faults in, various 'case studies', on the way to a more adequate answer.
I started reading Timaeus because a book by the late Steven Weinberg (there are "noble prize winners" and then there are "NOBLE PRIZE WINNERS") about what he wished he had known about the origins of physics when he started graduate school mentioned that Timaeus assigned (confidently, apparently) to each of the Greek elements (earth, air, fire, and water) an atom shaped like one of the Platonic solids. As Willowfall says, it is not quite fair to laugh at the absurdity of this coming from people 2600 years ago trying to understand, but it is absurd to treat those same people as unquestioned authorities when they spout other stuff which is also completely unsupported by real evidence.
 
I think the general answer is that crucifixion was used by a huge number of both western and eastern cultures over at least 3 millennia (last 'official' use of crux for execution that I've heard of happened in China in the early 1900s).

Considering trade was far more extensive than is commonly acknowledged (and an idea is easier to carry about than an object) there is no "one way" it was done even inside a unified structure like the Roman Empire.

So have at it because they could be just as sadistic as you can be.

kisses

willowfall
I have read something that agrees with what you say: "there was no standard crucifixion--it depended on the imagination and cruelty of the executioners". Also, there is convenience--one doesn't want anything too elaborate--akin to building a siege tower or something.
A full cross was probably too heavy to carry. The idea that the stipes was left in place and re-used makes sense. Whether someone was nailed to a patibulum and then hoisted in the air (it seems like doing that would make it hard to attach the patibulum to the stipes--that is discussed in Andyman's story here about Livia Cruxena, An Execution at Arelete) or the stipes was removed from its hole and laid flat, the patibulum attached, and then the prisoner nailed to both and hoisted into place is a good question. One could certainly uses wedges to secure the stipes, then remove them when it was used again and replace them. That is what "The Last Temptation of Christ" does.
There is that line in Josephus that says that at the siege of Jerusalem Titus ran out of "wood for the crosses and crosses for the bodies", and nailed people to the walls of the city. But that was a mass execution. It does indicate there was flexibility, though.
I doubt there was an empire-wide manual, and I doubt crucifixion training was a prime objective in the legions or even the auxiliaries.
 
I don't the Timaeus well enough, I've only dipped into it to try to get my head around Plato's concept of the relationship between the ultimate reality, or Good, and the world as we (falsely) experience it. But surely the question, what is justice?, is the main theme of The Republic? It's typical of the 'Socratic method' to examine, and show up the faults in, various 'case studies', on the way to a more adequate answer.
One thing Timaeus says is that the cosmos is a COPY of some eternal object. It also claims the universe is a living being, a copy of a perfect living being. I personally have some trouble with this.
(1) "Eternity" implies endless time. If there is a creative event, then either it never happened because there had to be infinite time preceding or there is no eternity. (or time is an illusion and sequences of things are illusions as well).
(2) Perfect knowledge implies knowledge of the future. But then whoever has perfect knowledge can't have free will, because the all-knower knows what is going to happen and it therefore can't be altered and "surprise" the all-knower. How can something without free will be perfect (unless nothing has free will).
(3) Is freedom good? If Big Daddy needs to prevent a subordinate from self-harm, say, then "perfect love" (for Big Daddy) and "perfect freedom" (for the subordinate) are contradictory. How can situations like that exist in the universe that is the perfect living being?
So it boils down to the what the wormhole aliens say in Star Trek Deep Space Nine: "you are linear" (implying they are not). So for them everything "happens" at once--like watching endless movies over and over controlled by a giant remote?
(4) Mathematics has countable and uncountable infinities, the former contained in the latter. A circle generates the number pi, which is part of the "uncountables". I don't think there are any perfect circles or spheres in our universe which consists of particles--there are always "bumps" and irregularities because the particles are discrete. How can it be a copy of something perfect, then?
(5) There is Godel's Proof, which says that every system of logical axioms contains a proposition which can't be proven in that system. So systems of logical axioms don't exist in the "perfect living creature"? Then there is Whitehead's objection to "naive set theory". Is the set of all sets which aren't members of themselves a member of itself. It can't be. But then if it's not, it is in itself--the set of all sets which aren't members of themselves.
More than a few people respond to these problems by saying "so what? mathematics works." But Plato can't.
 
Last edited:
And since we're just philosophizing, a slightly different topic, some thoughts that Marcus Tullius Cicero expressed on the subject of pain, which could still be discussed.
Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem, quia voluptas sit, aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos, qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt, neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet consectetur adipisci[ng] velit, sed quia non numquam [do] eius modi tempora inci[di]dunt, ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum[d] exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? [D]Quis autem vel eum i[r]ure reprehenderit, qui in ea voluptate velit esse, quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum, qui dolorem eum fugiat, quo voluptas nulla pariatur? At vero eos et accusamus et iusto odio dignissimos ducimus, qui blanditiis praesentium voluptatum deleniti atque corrupti, quos dolores et quas molestias excepturi sint, obcaecati cupiditate non provident, similique sunt in culpa, qui officia deserunt mollitia animi, id est laborum et dolorum fuga.

For no one abhors or hates or flees from pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because great pains follow those who do not know how to follow pleasure with reason; never [do] such times occur, that with labor and pain he seeks some great pleasure. For to come to the smallest detail, which of us [d] undertakes any laborious exercise of the body, except in order to derive some benefit from it? [D] But who will rightly criticize him, who wants to be in that pleasure, which results in no discomfort, or him, who avoids pain, in which no pleasure is produced? But indeed we both accuse and with just hatred bring those who deserve it, who are softened and corrupted by the flattery of present pleasures, who, blinded by greed, do not provide for what pains and what troubles they are about to experience, and they are similarly guilty of those who forsake duties for the sake of softness of mind, that is, flight from toils and pains.
 
qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet
... and of course it's also the source of the famous 'lorem ipsum' passage -- ever since the Letraset age and still today, the most widely used 'filler text' when wanting to preview the layout of some print, or test how a font looks in usage. Interestingly it's possible to trace the exact edition where the passage was sourced as there's one where due to hyphenation, 'do-' was on one page and the next continued with 'lorem ipsum'.
 
Back
Top Bottom