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  • Thread starter The Fallen Angel
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What is your basis for using the word corrupt?

What he did not do in carrying out is duties was to refuse to call a 6-foot person with a beard she or affirm that a birth male could become a woman by "impersonating" (words of the judge) one. I would like him to have been more sympathetic to a client. But my point is that the court has ruled that to believe Genesis 1:27 is unacceptable in a public employee and grounds for dismissal. Is this not the beginning of thought police?

Corrupt is applicable because he refused to carry out his lawfully mandated duties. That is one of the definitions of corruption.

But further let us be clear

99. As to Dr Mackereth’s assertion concerning the example of the six- foot tall man with a beard who wish to be addressed as “she” there is no mention of this in the claim form, nor in Mr Owen’s note of the meeting [133] which Dr Mackereth was asked to agree. As we state below whilst Dr Mackereth made clear that note was not in his words, he accepted it fairly reflected the content of the meeting (130). Further, Dr Mackereth told us orally that the questions as relayed in the note were those questions that were put to him. Nor at any time did he seek to correct the note having been given the opportunity to do so.

100. Having sought to clarify why Dr Mackereth distinctly recalled those words being used he told us that he remembered telling a national newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, of that in early July 2018. The web version of a Daily Telegraph article from that time was before us [176-180]. It was put to the claimant that made no mention of a six-foot man with a beard. Dr Mackereth told us that he had been told certain matters were redacted from the web version and that he had thought a copy of the print version at home. We asked him to check and to ensure that that was disclosed to the respondents if he located it and a copy provided to the Tribunal. No such copy was provided.

101. Nor was there any mention of a six-foot man with a beard in an article that appeared on the Daily Mail’s website [181-187]. Indeed, in the Daily Mail article that is before us (initially uploaded on 13 July and updated on 16 July) an account is given of the specific questions posed to and answered by Dr Mackereth that makes no reference whatsoever to the bearded man.

102. Accordingly, the first mention we can locate of reference to a six-foot man with a beard appears in the claimant’s witness statement dated May 2019 almost a year after the events that concern us.


Now to be clear not only would Dr Mackereth have been refusing to follow normal doctor patient practice if he had refused to address a six foot man with a beard by their chosen name and/or gender, it would also appear said six foot man was a fiction that Dr Mackereth incorporated in his own testimony only after reading about it in one or more of the papers that made that particular incident up.

Fortunately for him the tribunal

107. We remind ourselves that:-
“Remembering is a constructive process. Memories are mental constructions that bring together different types of knowledge in an act of remembering. As a consequence, memory is prone to error and is easily influenced by the recall environment, including police interviews and cross-examination in court.” 7 and it was common ground that Dr Mackereth was upset by the whole situation. We find those matters being so, he was not deliberately attempting to mislead the tribunal but instead his memory was in error


Seemed inclined to be generous...oh those evil liberals with their respect for law and due process and evidence.

There is more but reading the actual judgement, as many here are wont to do reveal that Dr Mackereth was the one who got himself in his predicament by his own actions and not due to some external prejudice by others.

Oh and further a highly selective reading of the bible has never been accepted as a defence by even ecclesiastical courts.
 
Irrespective of our determinations above, all three heads, belief in Genesis 1:27, lack of belief in transgenderism and conscientious objection to transgenderism in our judgment are incompatible with human dignity and conflict with the fundamental rights of others, specifically here, transgender individuals.

That would seem to forbid belief. But in effect it’s more like what I should but never will tell my fundamentalist sisters, "Stop using Jesus as an excuse for being a fucking bigot, willya?!"
Taking that part out of context it would appear not only to forbid belief, but also mandate an opposing belief, in holding "lack of belief in transgenderism ... incompatible with human dignity".

I guess it's necessary to look further up in the document to where it's defined what various 'beliefs' are to mean within the context of the judgement.

a. “His belief in the truth of the Bible, and in particular, the truth of Genesis 1:27: “So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” It follows that every person is created by God as either male or female. A person cannot change their sex/gender at will. Any attempt at, or pretence of, doing so, is pointless, self-destructive, and sinful. (“Belief in Genesis 1:27”)
b. Lack of belief (i) that it is possible for a person to change their sex/gender, (ii) that impersonating the opposite sex may be beneficial for an individual’s welfare, and/or (iii) that the society should accommodate and/or encourage anyone’s impersonation of the opposite sex (“lack of belief in Transgenderism”)
c. Belief that it would be irresponsible and dishonest for e.g. a health professional to accommodate and/or encourage a patient’s impersonation of the opposite sex (“conscientious objection to Transgenderism”)

(Emphasis mostly mine).
So, if in fact the doctor were to insist on calling any and all patients with a 'trans' self-identification 'sinful', if he were to in a blanket manner be unwilling to 'accommodate' them or consider that at least for the welfare of some individuals their identification might be beneficial for them, it doesn't seem all that surprising that he would fall foul of the requirements of the position.

For people of a conviction - religious or otherwise - at odds with the interpretation of gender ideology that currently holds institutional power, this will boil down to how much they will be willing to participate and be complicit in systems of power that make it impossible for them to live their convictions outwardly. If you're deeply convinced the system is enforcing or encouraging that which is destructive, sinful, or haram -- you'll have to opt out.

With regards to 'gender self-ID' this is going to be not only in conflict with some Christians, not only also some Muslims, but also in conflict with some entirely secular feminists. (They get stigmatized as 'TERFs')

Of course the problem behind this, and why conflicts like this are simultaneously appearing with such ferocity in several Western nations right now, is institutional capture by a quite radical form of gender ideology, that uses constructivist arguments to claim that all aspects of being a woman (or not) that are accepted to matter, result from a socially constructed gender identity.

A consequence of this is for instance the rising demand that all spaces reserved for women must be open to persons who gain 'womanhood' by self-identification whether or not accompanied by varying degrees of presentational, behavioral, hormonal or surgical modification. I.e. 'transwomen are women' no ifs and buts allowed -- especially not from those sneeringly derided as mere 'cis-women' who haven't gone through the heroics of the reconstruction of the self.

Accompanying this is the pushing of 'transition' at ever younger ages for children quickly diagnosed as 'gender dysphoric', with early onset hormone treatments, puberty blockers and especially for girls 'top surgeries'.

Many of these 'gender dysphoric' children, especially the girls, are merely passing through more severe versions of the body-identity crisis that is widespread ... I'd dare say ... normal ... in puberty.

Some of them are merely expressing themselves on the tail ends of what's normal in a distribution of sex-typical characteristics.
That is, they might be for instance tomboyish girls.
And some of them left alone would simply grow up to be OK with their own sexual identity but have same-sex orientation.

That's the cruel irony, that in the oh so tolerant new world, young girls who aren't acting gender-stereotypically, or girls who might be struggling to find out whether they might be lesbians or not, are getting pushed into 'gender dysphoria' and 'discovering' that they are 'actually boys' and need to have themselves chemically sterilized and mutilated. Especially if they're struggling with their identity during puberty while having other issues - medical or not - that affect their social standing (loneliness, depression, autism, addiction)
(I'm focusing on female children here partly because the rise in 'gender treatments' has been so much more extreme for them)
Tavistock-referrals-boy-girl-ratio.jpg

ROGD is absolutely a thing and it's a social contagion boosted by ideology. There will be a lot to answer for here in the future. It's not like such things haven't happened before.







 
Taking that part out of context it would appear not only to forbid belief, but also mandate an opposing belief, in holding "lack of belief in transgenderism ... incompatible with human dignity".

I guess it's necessary to look further up in the document to where it's defined what various 'beliefs' are to mean within the context of the judgement.

a. “His belief in the truth of the Bible, and in particular, the truth of Genesis 1:27: “So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” It follows that every person is created by God as either male or female. A person cannot change their sex/gender at will. Any attempt at, or pretence of, doing so, is pointless, self-destructive, and sinful. (“Belief in Genesis 1:27”)
b. Lack of belief (i) that it is possible for a person to change their sex/gender, (ii) that impersonating the opposite sex may be beneficial for an individual’s welfare, and/or (iii) that the society should accommodate and/or encourage anyone’s impersonation of the opposite sex (“lack of belief in Transgenderism”)
c. Belief that it would be irresponsible and dishonest for e.g. a health professional to accommodate and/or encourage a patient’s impersonation of the opposite sex (“conscientious objection to Transgenderism”)

(Emphasis mostly mine).
So, if in fact the doctor were to insist on calling any and all patients with a 'trans' self-identification 'sinful', if he were to in a blanket manner be unwilling to 'accommodate' them or consider that at least for the welfare of some individuals their identification might be beneficial for them, it doesn't seem all that surprising that he would fall foul of the requirements of the position.

For people of a conviction - religious or otherwise - at odds with the interpretation of gender ideology that currently holds institutional power, this will boil down to how much they will be willing to participate and be complicit in systems of power that make it impossible for them to live their convictions outwardly. If you're deeply convinced the system is enforcing or encouraging that which is destructive, sinful, or haram -- you'll have to opt out.

With regards to 'gender self-ID' this is going to be not only in conflict with some Christians, not only also some Muslims, but also in conflict with some entirely secular feminists. (They get stigmatized as 'TERFs')

Of course the problem behind this, and why conflicts like this are simultaneously appearing with such ferocity in several Western nations right now, is institutional capture by a quite radical form of gender ideology, that uses constructivist arguments to claim that all aspects of being a woman (or not) that are accepted to matter, result from a socially constructed gender identity.

A consequence of this is for instance the rising demand that all spaces reserved for women must be open to persons who gain 'womanhood' by self-identification whether or not accompanied by varying degrees of presentational, behavioral, hormonal or surgical modification. I.e. 'transwomen are women' no ifs and buts allowed -- especially not from those sneeringly derided as mere 'cis-women' who haven't gone through the heroics of the reconstruction of the self.

Accompanying this is the pushing of 'transition' at ever younger ages for children quickly diagnosed as 'gender dysphoric', with early onset hormone treatments, puberty blockers and especially for girls 'top surgeries'.

Many of these 'gender dysphoric' children, especially the girls, are merely passing through more severe versions of the body-identity crisis that is widespread ... I'd dare say ... normal ... in puberty.

Some of them are merely expressing themselves on the tail ends of what's normal in a distribution of sex-typical characteristics.
That is, they might be for instance tomboyish girls.
And some of them left alone would simply grow up to be OK with their own sexual identity but have same-sex orientation.

That's the cruel irony, that in the oh so tolerant new world, young girls who aren't acting gender-stereotypically, or girls who might be struggling to find out whether they might be lesbians or not, are getting pushed into 'gender dysphoria' and 'discovering' that they are 'actually boys' and need to have themselves chemically sterilized and mutilated. Especially if they're struggling with their identity during puberty while having other issues - medical or not - that affect their social standing (loneliness, depression, autism, addiction)
(I'm focusing on female children here partly because the rise in 'gender treatments' has been so much more extreme for them)
View attachment 759924

ROGD is absolutely a thing and it's a social contagion boosted by ideology. There will be a lot to answer for here in the future. It's not like such things haven't happened before.
One of the most difficult problems just beginning to arise is the insistence that trnas-females be allowed to compete equally with birth-females in school sports. Keep in mind,as with the trans person in the UK example, some of these trans have had no surgery and sometimes not even hormones. They only need to "identify" as female to have full rights to be treated as such. There have already been examples of such persons dominating a league or championships to the frustration of the birth-females. So far, the rights advocates refuse to acknowledge that birth males are intrinsically stronger and faster than birth females. Some females feel that this is unfair.
As I cis-male, I am forbidden by the equality enforcers from having any viewpoint that doesn't support and celebrate every action of a trans.
 
Well said, RR and Malins. I would only add that the key paragraphs (for me, at least) in the actual conclusions of the ruling, are 199, 200 and following, which indicate that holding the belief is not in and of itself prohibited, but employing those beliefs in a way that is offensive to others (i.e. does not treat them with respect), and serves as an excuse to withhold the same respect and service as would be normally rendered is prohibited. In other words, as RR has already noted, you can't use your beliefs to i) withhold the services that you are by law supposed to provide as part of your job, and ii) you can't use conscientious objection to refuse treatment, except the actual operation that would run counter to your beliefs (e.g. the actual transgender operations, abortion, or whatever), and even then you have to refer them to someone who can help them regardless of your personal beliefs.

We have a similar set of laws in Canada regarding referrals to abortion and assisted dying (now recently legal in Canada). Doctors who don't perform those services must still provide referrals, even if they are Roman Catholic.

I see no great discrimination here. Nobody is being denied the right to believe what they wish. They simply cannot impose that belief on others or inconvenience others through the exercise of their beliefs and at the expense of services that others have a legal right to expect.
 
Well said, RR and Malins. I would only add that the key paragraphs (for me, at least) in the actual conclusions of the ruling, are 199, 200 and following, which indicate that holding the belief is not in and of itself prohibited, but employing those beliefs in a way that is offensive to others (i.e. does not treat them with respect), and serves as an excuse to withhold the same respect and service as would be normally rendered is prohibited. In other words, as RR has already noted, you can't use your beliefs to i) withhold the services that you are by law supposed to provide as part of your job, and ii) you can't use conscientious objection to refuse treatment, except the actual operation that would run counter to your beliefs (e.g. the actual transgender operations, abortion, or whatever), and even then you have to refer them to someone who can help them regardless of your personal beliefs.

We have a similar set of laws in Canada regarding referrals to abortion and assisted dying (now recently legal in Canada). Doctors who don't perform those services must still provide referrals, even if they are Roman Catholic.

I see no great discrimination here. Nobody is being denied the right to believe what they wish. They simply cannot impose that belief on others or inconvenience others through the exercise of their beliefs and at the expense of services that others have a legal right to expect.
And a similar thing with clerks who don't want to issue licenses for same sex marriages, of which there were a few cases in the US and even a couple in Canada after it became the law of the land. If you are a public officer, you are free to believe it's wrong, but if you can't follow the law, you need to find another employment. Just as if someone follows a religion that allows human sacrifice, they are free to believe in it, but if they actually do it, expect a knock at the door from yours truly...

I note that Tree's St Louis Cardinals scored 10 runs in the first inning against the Atlanta Braves and now lead 13-1. I don't know if that is the largest post-season margin in history, but it's got to be in the top few. I assume he's downed a Seagram's or two or three or four in celebration...
 
... you can't use your beliefs to i) withhold the services that you are by law supposed to provide as part of your job, and ii) you can't use conscientious objection to refuse treatment, except the actual operation that would run counter to your beliefs... and even then you have to refer them to someone who can help them regardless of your personal beliefs.

We have a similar set of laws in Canada regarding referrals to abortion and assisted dying (now recently legal in Canada). Doctors who don't perform those services must still provide referrals, even if they are Roman Catholic.

I see no great discrimination here. Nobody is being denied the right to believe what they wish. They simply cannot impose that belief on others or inconvenience others through the exercise of their beliefs and at the expense of services that others have a legal right to expect.
I'd agree with that. The law of the State is what it is (which does not by necessity make it right) and the State will enforce it. The belief and conscience of the individual or a cultural group may come in ethical conflict with it.

If for instance a doctor is convinced that even providing a referral to the the procedure he opposes constitutes a violation of his principles (as in, he would be participating in doing harm to the patient by indirectly enabling the procedure) then he needs to opt out of the system. That may mean that he is not able to practice his profession in a State that is constituted under that particular law. This may seem harsh but it's quite typical for cultural conflict. (Emigration may be a solution more easily available for doctors than other professions.)

As modern Western nations continue to unravel what common cultural fabric they still have, such conflicts will be more common.
 
Tree replies with a small twist... In the US the LGTGQ demands to be treated as they desire. For the lesbian and gay community I really don't care eve if if it is not my lifestyle. As for the the TG part, where does the 'trans' occur? Does one just say they say they aren't what they were born with even if they have all the original plumbing? Do they have the 'change' but no hormonal changes?

As for the 'Q' isn't this redundant for the 'LG' community or am I just too old?
 
And a similar thing with clerks who don't want to issue licenses for same sex marriages, of which there were a few cases in the US and even a couple in Canada after it became the law of the land. If you are a public officer, you are free to believe it's wrong, but if you can't follow the law, you need to find another employment. Just as if someone follows a religion that allows human sacrifice, they are free to believe in it, but if they actually do it, expect a knock at the door from yours truly...

I note that Tree's St Louis Cardinals scored 10 runs in the first inning against the Atlanta Braves and now lead 13-1. I don't know if that is the largest post-season margin in history, but it's got to be in the top few. I assume he's downed a Seagram's or two or three or four in celebration...
I'd agree with that. The law of the State is what it is (which does not by necessity make it right) and the State will enforce it. The belief and conscience of the individual or a cultural group may come in ethical conflict with it.

If for instance a doctor is convinced that even providing a referral to the the procedure he opposes constitutes a violation of his principles (as in, he would be participating in doing harm to the patient by indirectly enabling the procedure) then he needs to opt out of the system. That may mean that he is not able to practice his profession in a State that is constituted under that particular law. This may seem harsh but it's quite typical for cultural conflict. (Emigration may be a solution more easily available for doctors than other professions.)

As modern Western nations continue to unravel what common cultural fabric they still have, such conflicts will be more common.
Many of these laws were 'passed' by judges. That is not allowed in US... but done all the time...
 
Of course the problem behind this, and why conflicts like this are simultaneously appearing with such ferocity in several Western nations right now, is institutional capture by a quite radical form of gender ideology, that uses constructivist arguments to claim that all aspects of being a woman (or not) that are accepted to matter, result from a socially constructed gender identity.

Except and I realise you regard this as a minor point, that is not remotely what this case was about. Dr Mackereth while he may or may not have been and possibly still is an NHS doctor was not being employed by the NHS but by the Department for Work and Pensions. The reason the DWP employ medical doctors is to assess applicants on medical grounds for access to certain benefits which have a medical criteria. Mostly until the change over to Universal Credit :boaa: I suspect this would be Disablity Living Allowance. The examination for which is fucking intrusive at the best of times. Now it is common practice for doctors to refer to patients as they prefer to be referred to because often they are carrying out procedures which are stressful enough without going out of your way to maliciously insult them. Not to mention if you need to be in receipt of Disability Living Allowance then your life is probably unpleasant enough already.

So yeah context rather does matter in this case. If that context means that actually gender beliefs are not the issue at play but a willingness to abide by a code of ethics for which you accepted payment for abiding by then that is the context.
 
Except and I realise...
What I realise is that with you, nothing is ever about anything, especially not context. I do know what things are aboout with you.

Because of course you skip the part where I agree that he has to abide by the requirements.

That's the part where I literally talk about falling 'foul of the requirements of the position' and having to opt out.

Why on Earth do you think people are discussing this, and other cases, internationally? (Praefectus Praetorio who brought it up isn't British for instance)?

Because it's contextualized in a larger struggle of ideas. And of course 'gender beliefs' are a part of the issue.
 
What I realise is that with you, nothing is ever about anything, especially not context. I do know what things are aboout with you.

Because of course you skip the part where I agree that he has to abide by the requirements.

That's the part where I literally talk about falling 'foul of the requirements of the position' and having to opt out.

Why on Earth do you think people are discussing this, and other cases, internationally? (Praefectus Praetorio who brought it up isn't British for instance)?

Because it's contextualized in a larger struggle of ideas. And of course 'gender beliefs' are a part of the issue.
I lost you on the last sentence...
 
I lost you on the last sentence...
Okay

1. Dr Mackereth has a job he's paid for under the assumption he does that job to the satisfaction of the employer
2. Dr Mackereth doesn't conform with the employer's expectation of his way of dealing with transgender identifiying individuals
3. No more job if he insists; can't claim individual discrimination.

What's more interesting internationally - that someone got into some employment lawsuit?
Or the question is 'why was that the hill he chose to die on'.
 
What I realise is that with you, nothing is ever about anything, especially not context. I do know what things are aboout with you.

Because of course you skip the part where I agree that he has to abide by the requirements.

That's the part where I literally talk about falling 'foul of the requirements of the position' and having to opt out.

Why on Earth do you think people are discussing this, and other cases, internationally? (Praefectus Praetorio who brought it up isn't British for instance)?

Because it's contextualized in a larger struggle of ideas. And of course 'gender beliefs' are a part of the issue.

No it is not contextualised in a larger struggle of ideas. The NHS deals with gender reassignment surgery and/or related counselling. Dr Mackereth has nothing to do with that in his role for the DWP. The cause for his examining his patients would not have been related to their gender self-identification. It is the NHS who are struggling with the complexities of that issue and it is a complex issue. The DWP appointed role is to assess whether applicants are eligible for benefits and or pensions based on meeting set criteria while treating those applicants with a certain dignity and respect regardless of the outcome of said assessments.

Dr Mackereth failed to perform his duty in a manner that was entirely within his power to do so. It is not bad that he was then held to account for this dereliction because of some wider context that does not apply.

Now if you have failed to understand the difference between the Department for Work and Pensions and the National Health Service then my apologies. However I would note you started with a personal aspersion on my character and followed with a misconstruction of the point I was objecting to.
 
Dr Mackereth failed to perform his duty in a manner that was entirely within his power to do so. It is not bad that he was then held to account for this dereliction because of some wider context that does not apply.
Which of course I agreed with in my original post, and have repeatedly pointed out in several other posts, see my answer to Jollyrei's.
If you complain about aspersions and misconstructions, .

.. check your own tone. I just run with that. If you were willing to engage in good faith you wouldn't lead your original post as you did. If you pretend to read my mind, I'll answer in kind.
 
Which of course I agreed with in my original post, and have repeatedly pointed out in several other posts, see my answer to Jollyrei's.
If you complain about aspersions and misconstructions, .

.. check your own tone. I just run with that. If you were willing to engage in good faith you wouldn't lead with that first sentence.
Be nice, Malins... We are only guys... :doh:
 
Did anyone answer what the hell is the difference between "LG" and "Q"
Well OK there's a lesbian couple who have their kid in the same class as my son. They are ridiculously 'normal' people in every way except they don't conform to 'heteronormativity'. They don't do any gender weirdness with their daughter either. They have nothing in common with performative 'queerness'.

Or think Pete Buttigieg. Gay but not queer. Pretty square actually.

Also, above couple had to go through 26 applications to get their daughter into a kindergarten. While hard to prove legally it was obvious discrimination. This is where I'm on board with L or G people for their rights.

I'm not sure all people rolled up into the "LGBTQ..." acronym even consider themselves one community.
If you ask some 'L's they may have some non-communitarian thoughts about certain kinds of T's demanding to have access to their spaces.
 
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